Jesus is God

Jesus is God


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daqq

Well-known member
Everything you're presenting is nothing more than opinionated accusation. Besides this, I must wonder if you even know why you are attacking in this direction, considering the King James used the Received Text compiled by Theodore Beza. Regardless, a compilation of the majority manuscripts is hardly prone to your charge of "changing the ancient texts."

Do you have something relevant and substantial, something other than vague angry feelings?

It is all relevant to WHOM I am speaking because WHO I am speaking to has told me before that the KJV is the most accurate and reliable version of the Bible, and that person said so here:

There are some broken versions that even contradict themselves. Don't use those broken versions. Use a normal King James translation, the same as we've had for the past four hundred years since English was modernized. If and when you think you found a problem, then show it to me. I have had a standing challenge for about fifteen years for anyone to show me an provable error in either source text or translation or consistency (his word will not contradict itself) and that challenge has been open for anyone.

Until that time that you have a provable answer to that challenge, the scriptures don't need fixing.

Moreover I have shown you right here how your doctrine is refuted by two simple little plain emphatic statements which are not under dispute by anyone; and yet, all you can do is spout false accusations and pontificate. My previous post stands, and is not merely accusation as you charge, because what I posted is true about humanism in the era from which you have received your "Received Text", which is precisely what "Textus Receptus" means, and why it came to be known by that title. And it did indeed come from the original Erasmus text whether you choose to believe that or not, that is where the Textus Receptus originated, even though it was revised many times, (just as well as the original KJV has also been revised many times). It should be plain as day to anyone reading our exchange that you are the one on the defensive and likely very angry inside. Once again, you prove what I said: you are projecting yourself onto me. :chuckle:
 

RealityJerk

New member
Here's a very interesting article on 1st John 5:7...

https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

For those reading this thread, just compare the arguments and come to your own conclusions. The KJV ONLY proponents defend the verse as authentic, but there is plenty of reasonable evidence showing otherwise. Again, just compare the arguments of the KJV only folks, with most of biblical scholarship, and come to your own conclusions.
 

RealityJerk

New member
Why do the scriptures differentiate between the three?

The Trinitarian formula of the “Father Son and Holy Spirit” is not part of the original text of Matthew 28:19.

Eusebius (260 – 339 AD) was a Roman Christian historian and is regarded as a well learned Christian scholar by the Catholic church (the only church that existed for close to 1500 years, before a Protestant ever set foot on this earth..). He became the Bishop of Caesarea in 314 AD. He quotes many verses in his works, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. Seventeen times in his works prior to Nicaea, Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 as “Go and make disciples of all nations in my name” without mentioning the Trinity baptism formula, not even once.

Here are a few interesting comments from well known scholars:

1. George H. Gilbert Quotes Mr Conybeare and says the following on Matthew 28:19:

“There is important external evidence against the existence of this formula in manuscripts current before the time of Eusebius, and various recent writers have urge that the practice of baptism in Acts and Epistles of Paul is utterly incompatible with the view that Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (E.g., Martineau, The Seat of Authority in religion, page 515; Percy Gardener, Exploratio Evangilica, page 445; Sabatier, Religions of Authority and Religion of Spirit, page 52; Harnack, History of Dogma Volume 1, 79, note).”

George H. Gilbert then says:

“It is obvious that the location of this word between ‘Father’ and ‘Holy Spirit’ is virtually a claim that the Son stands on the same level with them. The position takes him up, as it were, into the very center of the Deity. But to this claim the words of Jesus in our oldest sources stand opposed. Unique and divine as is their claim regarding the character of the Master a claim like that of the Baptismal formula, but in the clearest, most unambiguous terms assert what is diametrically opposed to the implication of that passage. They assert manhood; they deny attributes of deity (e.g., omniscience and absolute goodness). Therefore it is impossible to hold that the Jesus of the Synoptic Gospels can have spoken the words of the Baptismal formula” [1]

2. James Moffatt’s NT Translation in his footnote (page 64) says the following words:

“….it may be that this (Trinitarian) formula, so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Catholic) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community, It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing “in the name of Jesus, cf. Acts 1:5….”

3. Bultmann says:

“As to the rite of baptism, it was normally consummated as a bath in which the one receiving baptism completely submerged, and if possible in flowing water as the allusions of Acts 8:36, Heb. 10:22, Barn. 11:11 permit us to gather, and as Did. 7:1-3 specifically says. According to the last passage, (the apocryphal Catholic Didache) suffices in case of the need if water is three times poured [false Catholic sprinkling doctrine] on the head. The one baptizing names over the one being baptized the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,” later expanded (changed) to the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.”[2]

4. Principal A. J. Grieve says:

“The command to baptize into the threefold name is late doctrinal expansion. In place of the words ‘baptizing… spirit’ we should probably read simply ‘into my name’, i.e. (turn the nations) to Christianity, or ‘in my name’” [3]

5. Former Priest Tom Harpur:

“All but the most conservative scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command [Triune part of Matthew 28:19] was inserted later. The formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available [the rest of the New Testament] that the earliest Church did not baptize people using these words (“in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”) baptism was “into” or “in” the name of Jesus alone. Thus it is argued that the verse originally read “baptizing them in My Name” and then was expanded [changed] to work in the [later Catholic Trinitarian] dogma. In fact, the first view put forward by German critical scholars as well as the Unitarians in the nineteenth century, was stated as the accepted position of mainline scholarship as long ago as 1919, when Peake’s commentary was first published: “The Church of the first days (AD 33) did not observe this world-wide (Trinitarian) commandment, even if they knew it. The command to baptize into the threefold [Trinity] name is a late doctrinal expansion….“[4]

[1] George Holley Gilbert, The Biblical World > Vol. 34, No. 6, Dec., 1909 , page 374 to 378
[2] R. Bultmann, Theology of the New Testament. Page 133
[3] Principal A. J. Grieve, A Commentary on the Bible (1920), page 723
[4] Former Priest Tom Harpur “For Christ’s sake, page 103

The formula of the “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” is not original. The book of Acts is enough to throw it in the trash bin, being that the 12 disciples never baptized anyone using it. I also showed that Eusebius read the verse as “Go and make disciples of all nations in my name”, which is exactly what the 12 disciples did. They baptized in the name of Messiah, Yeshua, not "Father, Son and Holy Spirit". That is a later addition to the Gospel of Matthew. The Catholics, had the bad habit of editing manuscripts to support their theology and that's exactly what we're witnessing here with Matthew.

YHWH is One, not two or three "hypostasis", sharing the same "ousia". That's a non-semitic concept, originating with Greek philosophy, not the faith of Israel.
 
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daqq

Well-known member
Here's a very interesting article on 1st John 5:7...

https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

For those reading this thread, just compare the arguments and come to your own conclusions. The KJV ONLY proponents defend the verse as authentic, but there is plenty of reasonable evidence showing otherwise. Again, just compare the arguments of the KJV only folks, with most of biblical scholarship, and come to your own conclusions.

That speaks much to the point with Rosenritter previously above, and of course, the discrepancy you bring up is the well known whopper of them all. That is also a knowledgeable and well written article you have linked, (and easy to read being so short, thanks for posting it).
 

keypurr

Well-known member


Reason as you may. YHWH the Alohim of Israel, isn't a trinity of co-equal, co-eternal entities or "persons". Yeshua the Messiah, will deliver the Kingdom to His Father, where it belongs, after this age is over. In this age, the Messiah has complete authority, given to Him by His Father, who is the true Alohim or infinite, non-contingent reality. Christian Trinitarianism has no support in the Hebrew scriptures or the gospel of Messiah.

Torah and Messiah's interpretation or
teaching of it, is the only authority. The 12 apostles, were given authority to teach Messiah's gospel, not anyone else. Sheol/Paul, isn't one of the 12, so citing his letters, doesn't prove anything. Yeshua came for His people, the remnant of Israel. All who reject Torah, have no light in them:

Isa 8:20* To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.*

The Torah or divine law, divine instruction, personally handed to Moses on Mount Horeb, by the angel of the covenant / Messiah before his incarnation, that law will be kept by every genuine disciple of Messiah / every Israelite disciple of Messiah must keep His commandments. He is our shepherd, if you want to follow the fallen shepherds or Nephilim, go right ahead. All of your lawless, antisemitic, mystical, pagan gobbledygook, isn't going to alter, much less nullify YHWH's law. And it sure won't save you from annihilation. If you are truly a disciple of Messiah, then you must align yourself with YHWH's will, and His will is His Torah. There's no Trinity, much less any divine requirement for "Trinity belief" in Torah. That's an arbitrary, gentile imposition, demand, upon the children of Israel.


Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Do his mitzvoth/commandments. Those that do it. Walk The Way / Ha Derech. The called out, from the nations. The Qahal. Not the "Church" / Circus, but Israel restored. Those who will reign over the nations, as members of Messiah's royal family. Those who seek the Kingdom first, and its righteousness, empowered by their God given faith/emuna/faithfulness. Not playing cards below deck, but lifting the sails of the ship, for YHWH to fill them with His Eternal Spirit & Power. So you can remain asleep on the hammock, thinking you're "saved" and in the promised land, but you're actually in the wilderness. To cross the Jordan, you must WALK, and follow Joshua/Yeshua. You must fight.

Our rest is not here, in this age, it is in the age to come. No carpeted fox holes here. The trenches are dirty and cold. This is a battlefield, and you're right smack in the center of it. This life is a spiritual battle, for your very existence. There's no rest here, just a long march to Zion. Speculate all you want about YHWH's essence, none of that is going to help you when you're dead. What did you do? That's all, not your presumptuous speculations and descriptions of YHWH's infinite nature. All of your mystical claptrap creeds and confessions amount to nothing.





Great post friend. You have my respect.


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Rosenritter

New member
That speaks much to the point with Rosenritter previously above, and of course, the discrepancy you bring up is the well known whopper of them all. That is also a knowledgeable and well written article you have linked, (and easy to read being so short, thanks for posting it).

Did Reality post this on more than one thread at the same time? I replied on this thread already:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115654-The-Trinity&p=5084223&viewfull=1#post5084223

Summary: Wallace isn't presenting an honest picture of the evidence.
 

daqq

Well-known member
Did Reality post this on more than one thread at the same time? I replied on this thread already:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115654-The-Trinity&p=5084223&viewfull=1#post5084223

Summary: Wallace isn't presenting an honest picture of the evidence.

I have no clue because I only saw it here. However I am banned from entering the thread you have linked because a certain heretic there a while back could not handle his argument being proven false; so instead of providing evidence from the scripture for what he believes he chose instead to falsely accuse me of "blaspheming the Trinity", (because of what I said to him about his own deeds, and apparently he thinks he himself is the Trinity, and apparently the ministers of justice here agree, lol). :chuckle:

Anyway, I cannot answer you in that thread, but not by my own choice. :)
 
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Zeke

Well-known member
Great post friend. You have my respect.


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If you still respect symbols as literal separatist truth that is, the Kingdom is in you Luke 17:20-21, a micro of the macro of the kingdom of God Acts 17:24-28, are we off spring of the letter or spirit 2Cor 3:6 stuck in the eternal state of sonship or when mature coequal with the Father who we are supposed to be one with ruling our kingdom through righteous judgment 1Cor 13:1-13 which is the only creed that could rule over all things eternal 1John 4:18, God is a corporal unit without number or label though they all could apply if need be 1Cor 9:20, so you want to stay a hireling? Galatians 4:1 Matt 11:11.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Bs"d

My God is Y-H-W-H Who is one.

Besides Him there is no god.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Bs"d

My God is Y-H-W-H Who is one.

Besides Him there is no god.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2

Amen, he is my only God also.


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RBBI

New member
Understanding basic principles given to us in the law go a long way in establishing Truth. Take the law of the seed, for example. Father is Spirit, and as such can ONLY bear a seed after His own KIND, which would have to be Spirit. Jesus, like all men, is the earth-en vessel this seed was planted in and because the false father was eliminated from the beginning, He could grow up into the express image (the Seed) and likeness (the nature) of His Father.

The RCC had a vested interest in making the pre-cross flesh of Him "holy", because if you remove the concept of it being possible to become like Him through the implantation of the Seed in OUR flesh, then that serves the enemy nicely to stunt the growth of the sons of G-d. Which is why He said; "Why callest thou me good? There is NONE good but the Father." Peace
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Understanding basic principles given to us in the law go a long way in establishing Truth. Take the law of the seed, for example. Father is Spirit, and as such can ONLY bear a seed after His own KIND, which would have to be Spirit. Jesus, like all men, is the earth-en vessel this seed was planted in and because the false father was eliminated from the beginning, He could grow up into the express image (the Seed) and likeness (the nature) of His Father.

The RCC had a vested interest in making the pre-cross flesh of Him "holy", because if you remove the concept of it being possible to become like Him through the implantation of the Seed in OUR flesh, then that serves the enemy nicely to stunt the growth of the sons of G-d. Which is why He said; "Why callest thou me good? There is NONE good but the Father." Peace

Welcome back dear friend.




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keypurr

Well-known member
If you still respect symbols as literal separatist truth that is, the Kingdom is in you Luke 17:20-21, a micro of the macro of the kingdom of God Acts 17:24-28, are we off spring of the letter or spirit 2Cor 3:6 stuck in the eternal state of sonship or when mature coequal with the Father who we are supposed to be one with ruling our kingdom through righteous judgment 1Cor 13:1-13 which is the only creed that could rule over all things eternal 1John 4:18, God is a corporal unit without number or label though they all could apply if need be 1Cor 9:20, so you want to stay a hireling? Galatians 4:1 Matt 11:11.

One must let the spirit lead him through life.


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Rosenritter

New member
Bs"d

My God is Y-H-W-H Who is one.

Besides Him there is no god.

"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
."

Ex 20:1+2

John 1:10-11 KJV
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
 
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