The firstborn of all creation is a positional title.
Jesus is God
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The firstborn of all creation is a positional title.
Rosenritter
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From Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Whole Bible, (emphasis mine)
Summary: The firstborn of every creature is a Jewish term that is used to designate the Lord God Almighty, in the aspect that he has always existed and this is the Creator of All Things.
Rosenritter
New member
You don't seem to build your faith on any of them really.
Mark 1:1 KJV
(1) The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Note the gospel of Mark calls Jesus Christ the Son of God. It doesn't say Jesus was NOT the Son of God but only a vessel that was possessed, as you claim.
Luke 1:30-32 KJV
(30) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
(31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
(32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Note that it does not say that the Son of God shall possess her child that she shall name JESUS. It says that JESUS shall be called the Son of God. That's two strikes so far, want to try for three?
Luke 1:35 KJV
(35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Three strikes means what again? Seriously, Keypurr, why do you cling to that? Do you hold yourself in that high of an estimation that this idea which no one else in the world has heard of before is superior to what is told us in both Old and New Testaments?
If God wanted us to have such a story, he would have told it to us. We wouldn't have had to wait for Keypurr to tell us.
keypurr
Well-known member
For your sake you had best hope you are right. What does the following mean?
John 6:44 King James Version (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It says the Son will raise you up, not the Father.
Nope, he's still gotcha, all-u-y'all, (lol), because if the same Spirit who raised up the man Jesus is also in Keypurr, (Rom 8:9-11), then that same Spirit of Meshiah who raised the man Jesus from the dead will also raise Keypurr from the dead. Ruach Meshiah is Ruach Elohim, (Rom 8:9, and the Dove "brooding" over the waters in Gen 1:2, and the same Ruach Elohim of Mat 3:16). Ruach Meshiah speaks through the man Jesus after his immersion and especially in the Gospel of John, (which is not milk, but meat, after first having a fairly decent understanding of the other three Synoptic Gospel accounts).
Nope, you need to have Jesus as God the Son to have the Spirit.
So you do not believe Romans 8:9-11 which I spoke from and referenced?
keypurr
Well-known member
Jesus is the FLESH son of God, but he is not the son who was at the creation.
See above
I never said that Jesus was not God's son.
Your like a clanging symbol.
Scripture never says that JESUS, the man, was at the creation. It says that the exact IMAGE of the Father was at the creation. God is a spirit so this son has to be a spirit also..... Think Rosey
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
glorydaz
Well-known member
It's truly amazing the lengths some will go to in order to avoid seeing what is plainly revealed.
John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
1 John 1:2-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )
Rosenritter
New member
So now you are saying that Jesus is not the Son of God, but you claim you never said that Jesus was not God's son? Your logic is corrupt. Go on and make up your own gospel then. At least it's so bizarre that we don't need to worry that you'll suck anyone in.
Yeah, anytime you see a (parenthesis) it should immediately raise a red flag, and when I see it in the second line of the opening paragraph of a book I know that something is likely wrong. It is essentially like a group of translators got together and decided how they were going to not translate the passage for what it actually says, and decided to put the portion they either did not like or did not understand in parenthesis and treat it almost like a footnote from the author within his own text. But to do such a thing right in the second line of the opening passage really takes the cake. Moreover they apparently did not and do not understand because in the opening passage the author uses both words which we already know cannot be speaking of "seeing" Elohim with the eyes of the flesh. Those two words right in the opening line are οραω, (horao), and θεαομαι, (theaomai), as has already been mentioned in this thread, (John 1:18a and 1John 4:12a respectively, which I will post again below).
1 John 1:1-3
1 ο ην απ αρχης ο ακηκοαμεν ο εωρακαμεν [G3708 οραω] τοις οφθαλμοις ημων ο εθεασαμεθα [G2300 θεαομαι] και αι χειρες ημων εψηλαφησαν περι του λογου της ζωης
2 και η ζωη εφανερωθη και εωρακαμεν και μαρτυρουμεν και απαγγελλομεν υμιν την ζωην την αιωνιον ητις ην προς τον πατερα και εφανερωθη ημιν
3 ο εωρακαμεν και ακηκοαμεν απαγγελλομεν και υμιν ινα και υμεις κοινωνιαν εχητε μεθ ημων και η κοινωνια δε η ημετερα μετα του πατρος και μετα του υιου αυτου ιη χρ
1 John 1:1-3
1 Who was from the beginning: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have beheld, and our hands have handled, concerns the Word of the Life.
2 And the Life was revealed, and we have seen, and we testify, and we announce unto you the Life Aionion which was with the Father, and was revealed unto us.
3 Whom we have seen and we have heard we announce also unto you so that you yourselves also may have fellowship with us: and our fellowship moreover is with the Father and with His Son, Meshiah Ι̅H.
The two highlighted words, "seen" and "beheld", are these two words:
John 1:18a ASV
18a No man hath seen [εωρακεν (G3708 οραω)] God at any time;
1 John 4:12a ASV
12a No man hath beheld [τεθεαται (G2300 θεαομαι)] God at any time:
Please note the most critical point of all: the context, for the incorrect doctrine will force a contradiction upon the scripture, and the one loving the Word will not force a contradiction just to salvage a doctrinal viewpoint.
daqq,
1Jn.4:20
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Peace.
keypurr
Well-known member
Jesus is God
Learn to read Rosey, I never said that Jesus is not the son of God. However he is not the express image who was at the creation. That son is a very special spirit being. The logos was not human until it took on the human form in the body of Jesus. It was at that moment Jesus became the Christ and received the power and fullness of the logos.
Your only skimming the surface of scripture friend, use the mind you have to seek the depth of truth.
Sent from my iPad using TOL
Learn to read Rosey, I never said that Jesus is not the son of God. However he is not the express image who was at the creation. That son is a very special spirit being. The logos was not human until it took on the human form in the body of Jesus. It was at that moment Jesus became the Christ and received the power and fullness of the logos.
Your only skimming the surface of scripture friend, use the mind you have to seek the depth of truth.
Sent from my iPad using TOL
Rosenritter
New member
So now we have come full circle again. Not only does scripture say nothing about Jesus becoming possessed by a spirit, but we still have all those same scriptures you're not answering where Jesus is called the Son of God before the baptism of John that you claimed was the event, based on "This is my beloved Son." It is the child that shall be called the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, not some alien possessing force that body-snatches that child.
Isaiah 9:6 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Rosenritter
New member
:thumb: Amen.
Because you've seen Jesus yourself, right? Put your hand in his side and all that?
John 20:27-29 KJV
(27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Don't believe it applies in this case.
It is just as he said to you: all those passages and objections have already been argued out and proven to be faulty and incorrect understandings of those passages many, many, many times on TOL. You pick your version of the scriptures and stick with it because it promotes your version of the scriptures. But you have not seen the truth because you put your soul in the hands of other men with a bias and an agenda, (they call themselves translators but they are also interpreters).