Jesus is God

Jesus is God


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Krsto

Well-known member
A man with all power and authority in heaven and on earth? That's just silly.

You would have rejected Jesus as well.

It sounds like you are rejecting Christ as revealed to us in scripture.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Was God crucified and raised up by God?
Was God exalted to the right hand of God.
Did God receive from God the promise of the Holy Spirit and shed it abroad?
Did God sit at God's right hand?
Did God make God's enemies God's footstool?
Was God made Lord and Christ by God?

Obviously, Peter is talking about a man who was given all this, not God.

You think it's silly for a man to be given these things from God, but not silly for God to be given these things by God?
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
It sounds like you are rejecting Christ as revealed to us in scripture.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Was God crucified and raised up by God?
Was God exalted to the right hand of God.
Did God receive from God the promise of the Holy Spirit and shed it abroad?
Did God sit at God's right hand?
Did God make God's enemies God's footstool?
Was God made Lord and Christ by God?

Obviously, Peter is talking about a man who was given all this, not God.

You think it's silly for a man to be given these things from God, but not silly for God to be given these things by God?

Caino is a Urantia cultist! Not a Christian believer by any means!
 

Caino

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Banned
You still haven't answered why you don't like people to accept what Jesus says about Himself.

You are just being argumentative at this point. As a duel natured miraculous person, Jesus spoke from different vantage points at different times. He was both human and divine. That is the position that we take.
 

Caino

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I showed you scripture that proved Jesus did not raise himself. :think:

Scripture teaches Jesus' God raised Him!!! You want me to post it again??? :rolleyes:

Did Jesus really die? Of course he did. The Bible states that fact in many verses. The Bible also states that only God has immortality.


1 Timothy 6:16:
"Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see."

Not to mention the fact that this verse says that no one has or can see God. Thousands of people saw Jesus.

Now let’s take a look at another of the many verses that speak of God raising Jesus. Acts 2:32 states:
"God raised this Jesus"

Who raised this Jesus? GOD! Notice that it does not say "the Father," but "God." Unless we discard every known rule of language, we can see that Jesus is not included in the term God. Another point to be made is that God is alive and Jesus is dead. God is raising Jesus from the dead. As Timothy pointed out before, God is immortal, He cannot die. Jesus on the other hand is DEAD. If you believe Jesus to be God, then it is obvious that Jesus was never truly dead because he did in fact raise himself from the dead. A huge problem arises with this absurd idea in that the forgiveness of our sins comes only through the death of Jesus Christ as the Bible states. If Jesus is God then there was no real death because God is raising Jesus. Do you think that the Bible is wrong or that the creeds that were created by men that made Jesus God are wrong. Someone is wrong, the question is who, the writers of the Bible or the writers of your creeds?

This idea of a dual nature comes from Greek philosophy, it is called Dualism.

Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars.

The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:
"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."


The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).

If you want to understand who Jesus is you have to understand what his most important title means, "Messiah." Without an understanding of what it means to be the Messiah you will never really understand Jesus. He is after all, Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

:poly::sherlock:
Paul

In order to understand who the Son of God IS, you must first realize that he wasn't the Jewish Messiah as that worldly, material, nationalistic term evolved within Judaism. Jesus chose 12 common place men, not 12 experts in the so called scripture, not 12 temple authorities, 12 Pharisees or 12 Sadducees.

Jesus realized from the beginning of his ministry on earth that he could never fit the erroneous conceptions of the Jewish Messiah as that concept grew out of a foggy patchwork of Jewish literature (heavily edited, redacted, evolved) Jewish literature.

The problem wasn't Jesus, the problem was what happened within Judaism as that religion and it idioms evolved between Abram's blind faith and the arrival of the answer to that very faith.

Btw, the concept of the title "Son of Man" that best fits the actuality of Jesus was from the Book of Enoch which was eradicated from the Christian world view by the powerful Roman branch of Christology. There were others, it's just that Rome won out.
 

Caino

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Banned
Most trinitarians fail to see the logic behind the trinity which is why they typically default to "It's a mystery" when you start pressing them on the finer details. Many trinitarians just come out and admit that it's not logical.

Those are the same arguments that Atheist use to deny God, that believers can't define God, that God is a mystery. But I can see that you are NOT and atheist rather a fellow believer in God. Just think about that. :)

The Trinity is not logical in the same way that God can be experienced, but is not comprehensible by the finite mind.

Jesus said "follow me" not "figure me out" then follow me.

I trust Jesus and I trust his paradise Father but I don't claim to understand them in an absolute sense by any stretch. I don NOT take the tragic position that the Jews took when confronted with Jesus, they didn't understand him therefore he could not be.
 
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Caino

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Banned
I judge a man's teaching by what he teaches, not by his affiliations.

Nevertheless, thanks for the heads up.

I might point out, there was a time in Jerusalem when disciples of Jesus existed as a very small "cult" of followers of the presumably deceased carpenter. It wasn't until the Jesus movement began to pick up steam and the Greeks arrived when Steven was publicly stoned to death as Saul stood by watching wherein the authorities began to take notice. It happens to every revelation of truth.

But it is true, I AM a student of the Urantia Book, unlike Peter I publically confess it. Remember Peter in the courtyard as Jesus was being lead through? A "Grasnick Morowbe" tried to "out" Peter.

But who's hiding, I've had a thread right under this thread for 3 years.
 

Caino

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Banned
Maybe someone here should first define "God" and then explain why he can't delegate divinity with creative capacity to subordinate deities who are all unified in the will of the I AM?

The problem is that the finite creature suffers from inherent, conceptual limitations. He holds these limited conceptualizations as absolute truths, then when he encounters something outside of the conceptualization, he claims that idea cannot exist.

Judaism and it's resident theologians 'THOUGHT" itself into a monotheistic box that it can't get out of YET. Those limited concepts contaminate Christianity and the discussion of the identity, office, powers and function of Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith in Christ.​
 

Caino

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Banned
It sounds like you are rejecting Christ as revealed to us in scripture.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Was God crucified and raised up by God?
Was God exalted to the right hand of God.
Did God receive from God the promise of the Holy Spirit and shed it abroad?
Did God sit at God's right hand?
Did God make God's enemies God's footstool?
Was God made Lord and Christ by God?

Obviously, Peter is talking about a man who was given all this, not God.

You think it's silly for a man to be given these things from God, but not silly for God to be given these things by God?

Considering that God is a matter of faith, non understandable, and Jesus was a matter of faith (the apostle were even perplexed by him), then how would any subsequent writings, such as the NT be anything more than a shadowy metaphysical discussion? Our faith in Jesus still constitutes mystery yet we trust and do the best we can to understand. Be patient, he will eventually lead us into all truth.
 
Most trinitarians fail to see the logic behind the trinity which is why they typically default to "It's a mystery" when you start pressing them on the finer details. Many trinitarians just come out and admit that it's not logical.
There is no logic in the trinity doctrine. It's nonsense wrapped in frilly words and lofty sounding titles.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Considering that God is a matter of faith, non understandable, and Jesus was a matter of faith (the apostle were even perplexed by him), then how would any subsequent writings, such as the NT be anything more than a shadowy metaphysical discussion? Our faith in Jesus still constitutes mystery yet we trust and do the best we can to understand. Be patient, he will eventually lead us into all truth.

Only if you place ALL your faith in Him as your Lord and Savior!
Unfortunately, you've placed ALL your faith in the Urantia Book!
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Most trinitarians fail to see the logic behind the trinity which is why they typically default to "It's a mystery" when you start pressing them on the finer details. Many trinitarians just come out and admit that it's not logical.

How so? Should we just take your word for it?
 

Caino

BANNED
Banned
It was the responsibility and task of the one historic Church that Jesus himself founded and endowed with his own power and authority (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6) to define precisely and bindingly which proposed documents were in fact "God's word" and which were not, is that not so?

In any case, you appear to have a rather incomplete and unbalanced perception of these issues, and might benefit greatly from a careful and thorough reading of the following helpful sources:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

Jesus was the founder of "the kingdom of heaven". After his subsequent followers failed to live up to the ideal of the kingdom embodied in the original gospel, the institutionalized church became a substitute. The Christian church and it's numerous theologies drains many an ancient Pagan swamp and has confused and stunted the gospel of Jesus which still slumbers within it, awaiting the day for a new generation of believers who will dare to rely solely on Jesus Christ and his incomparable teachings.

The so called "authority" of the Church to decide which books would be part of a fetish cannon was purely contrived and presumptive. It simply overwhelmed other schools of thought and fledgling faith by it's alliance and adoption of the secular rulers in it's day. It would meet out brutal justice on anyone who dared to challenge it's petrified creeds and institutional mandates.

Having said all that, with its predictable failings and imperfection, Christ is still working with the church, and any church that sincerely seeks him but it is doubtful that primitive Christianity can be salvaged.

BTW, I really like the new Pope. :)
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You are just being argumentative at this point. As a duel natured miraculous person, Jesus spoke from different vantage points at different times. He was both human and divine. That is the position that we take.
I had assumed you were speaking from ignorance instead of from stupidity, but you are very close to proving me wrong.

In the vast majority of the words of Jesus when speaking about Himself, the only true God, and the Holy Spirit, Jesus is very clear that:
  • Jesus is not the only true God
  • Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
  • The Holy Spirit is not the only true God

In a few verses that are usually used with the presupposition that Jesus is the only true God, the most obvious meaning of Jesus' words is discarded in favor of using His words to "prove" that Jesus is the only true God.

You must have a reason to suppose that the vast majority of the words of Jesus should be discarded in favor of the few words that can be used to support the trinity.

But it is true, I AM a student of the Urantia Book, unlike Peter I publically confess it.
I see.
You publicly confess that you are a student of a false religion that was given by demons in order to lead people astray.

So, your reason for rejecting the words of Jesus is because you prefer the doctrines of demons.
 
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