Jesus is God

[Caino]

Post #316.


Indeed. And which books were those, for example? Post the names of two or three of them, please.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jubilees, The life of Adam and Eve, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Gospel of Nicodemus, theses are a few books that earlier Christian communities used but were effectively silenced by the church and eventually categorized as heretical by the proto-orthodox.

 

[Caino]

No, it doesn't. If the OT was not written by "god" then neither was the NT.

:first:

 

[Caino]

You mean laid it down and received it again?

John 10:17 KJV
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

This greek word for take is Lambano.


Definition that lines up with all other scripture:

to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back

No, I mean what Jesus said.

 

[Under Pressure]

The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jubilees, The life of Adam and Eve, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Gospel of Nicodemus, theses are a few books that earlier Christian communities used but were effectively silenced by the church and eventually categorized as heretical by the proto-orthodox.

This sounds like you been reading Ehrman? If so you might like How Jesus Became God.

 

[Cruciform]

This sounds like you been reading Ehrman? If so you might like How Jesus Became God.

For a balanced understanding, you'll also want to read How God Became Jesus.

 

[Under Pressure]

For a balanced understanding, you'll also want to read How God Became Jesus.

Sorry. I don't have time for books on fantasy. But thanks for sharing.

 

[Caino]

:doh: How contradictory can it get than that?!

He was given the power to do so by "god the father." Recall John 5:19 (among other verses saying the same thing).

All of it contradictory :sigh:.

GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity. Jesus is a personalization of the Father, he is from the Father. The Son is unified in divinity with the Father.

 

[aikido7]

When the band of Jesus' followers got in bed with the Roman Empire, the Emperor Constantine felt it was necessary for all Christian bishops scattered across the deserts and cities of the Middle East to work out guidelines for the faith.

The bishops (the ones who did not leave the meeting in anger) decided that Jesus was both God and man. Like it or not, we are forced to teeter on that knife edge as long as we assent to the traditional Apostle's Creed or the Nicean Creed.

 

[Caino]

This sounds like you been reading Ehrman? If so you might like How Jesus Became God.

The "spirit of truth" is the conviction of truth. This gift, poured out upon all flesh, is the presence of the very Christ that scholars may loose sight of in their unbelief but is here now for the believer.

 

[Cruciform]

The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jubilees, The life of Adam and Eve, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Gospel of Nicodemus, theses are a few books that earlier Christian communities used but were effectively silenced by the church and eventually categorized as heretical by the proto-orthodox.

It was the responsibility and task of the one historic Church that Jesus himself founded and endowed with his own power and authority (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 16:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6) to define precisely and bindingly which proposed documents were in fact "God's word" and which were not, is that not so?

In any case, you appear to have a rather incomplete and unbalanced perception of these issues, and might benefit greatly from a careful and thorough reading of the following helpful sources:

D. Bock, THE MISSING GOSPELS: Unearthing the Truth Behind Alternative Christianities (Thomas Nelson, 2006)

Darrell L. Bock & D. Wallace, DETHRONING JESUS: Exposing Popular Culture's Quest to Unseat the Biblical Christ (Thomas Nelson, 2007)

Craig A. Evans, FABRICATING JESUS: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels (InterVarsity Press, 2006)

Timothy Paul Jones, MISQUOTING TRUTH: A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus (InterVarsity Press, 2007)​

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[Cruciform]

Sorry. I don't have time for books on fantasy. But thanks for sharing.

Your evasion and avoidance of directly relevant material is noted, as is the inherent intellectual dishonesty in such a dodge---head placed firmly in sand, ignorance willfully maintained. As you like.

 

[Under Pressure]

GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity.

Thousands of deities. Literally.

Jesus is a personalization of the Father, he is from the Father.

Your description is not orthodox but it is YOUR unique conceptualization I'm sure.

The Son is unified in divinity with the Father.

Whatever that means :idunno:

 

[Under Pressure]

The "spirit of truth" is the conviction of truth.

Whatever someone believes is the truth IS the truth? Sounds like you think this is one of your Urantia threads.

This gift, pored out upon all flesh, is the presence of the very Christ that scholars may loose sight of in their unbelief but is here now for the believer.

It would help if you said something meaningful.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Straw man

You still haven't answered why you don't like people to accept what Jesus says about Himself.

 

[Pierac]

Jesus Christ said that he would and he did. There is no scripture that says Jesus was wrong, that he did not raise himself from the dead. Your adversarial spirit denies Jesus did what he said he was going to do.

I showed you scripture that proved Jesus did not raise himself. :think:

Scripture teaches Jesus' God raised Him!!! You want me to post it again???

Did Jesus really die? Of course he did. The Bible states that fact in many verses. The Bible also states that only God has immortality.

1 Timothy 6:16:
"Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see."

Not to mention the fact that this verse says that no one has or can see God. Thousands of people saw Jesus.

Now let’s take a look at another of the many verses that speak of God raising Jesus. Acts 2:32 states:
"God raised this Jesus"

Who raised this Jesus? GOD! Notice that it does not say "the Father," but "God." Unless we discard every known rule of language, we can see that Jesus is not included in the term God. Another point to be made is that God is alive and Jesus is dead. God is raising Jesus from the dead. As Timothy pointed out before, God is immortal, He cannot die. Jesus on the other hand is DEAD. If you believe Jesus to be God, then it is obvious that Jesus was never truly dead because he did in fact raise himself from the dead. A huge problem arises with this absurd idea in that the forgiveness of our sins comes only through the death of Jesus Christ as the Bible states. If Jesus is God then there was no real death because God is raising Jesus. Do you think that the Bible is wrong or that the creeds that were created by men that made Jesus God are wrong. Someone is wrong, the question is who, the writers of the Bible or the writers of your creeds?

This idea of a dual nature comes from Greek philosophy, it is called Dualism.

Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars.

The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:
"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."

The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).

If you want to understand who Jesus is you have to understand what his most important title means, "Messiah." Without an understanding of what it means to be the Messiah you will never really understand Jesus. He is after all, Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The "spirit of truth" is the conviction of truth. This gift, pored out upon all flesh, is the presence of the very Christ that scholars may loose sight of in their unbelief but is here now for the believer.

No "True believer" ought to take anything you or Freelight have to
say, as trustworthy! You're both a couple of "CULTISTS" and should
stay on your own turf!

 

[Pierac]

The term "Son of God" still doesn't appear in the OT. Your Wiki link referenced "sons of God" but does not use the singular term "Son of God" neither does the OT refer to the expected Messiah as being "the Son of God".

Your other pointless point is unrelated, the context of believing without seeing has to do with the resurrection.

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:
"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God" (Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.
The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states: "The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:
Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man
applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."
Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:
"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.
Taken from the studies of J Baixeras

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[keypurr]

For a balanced understanding, you'll also want to read How God Became Jesus.

But God did not become Jesus so that would be full of lies.

 

[keypurr]

I showed you scripture that proved Jesus did not raise himself. :think:

Scripture teaches Jesus' God raised Him!!! You want me to post it again???

Did Jesus really die? Of course he did. The Bible states that fact in many verses. The Bible also states that only God has immortality.

1 Timothy 6:16:
"Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see."

Not to mention the fact that this verse says that no one has or can see God. Thousands of people saw Jesus.

Now let’s take a look at another of the many verses that speak of God raising Jesus. Acts 2:32 states:
"God raised this Jesus"

Who raised this Jesus? GOD! Notice that it does not say "the Father," but "God." Unless we discard every known rule of language, we can see that Jesus is not included in the term God. Another point to be made is that God is alive and Jesus is dead. God is raising Jesus from the dead. As Timothy pointed out before, God is immortal, He cannot die. Jesus on the other hand is DEAD. If you believe Jesus to be God, then it is obvious that Jesus was never truly dead because he did in fact raise himself from the dead. A huge problem arises with this absurd idea in that the forgiveness of our sins comes only through the death of Jesus Christ as the Bible states. If Jesus is God then there was no real death because God is raising Jesus. Do you think that the Bible is wrong or that the creeds that were created by men that made Jesus God are wrong. Someone is wrong, the question is who, the writers of the Bible or the writers of your creeds?

This idea of a dual nature comes from Greek philosophy, it is called Dualism.

Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars.

The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:
"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."

The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).

If you want to understand who Jesus is you have to understand what his most important title means, "Messiah." Without an understanding of what it means to be the Messiah you will never really understand Jesus. He is after all, Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

oly::sherlock:
Paul

Paul, they still close their eyes and ears to truth.

They are only interested in keeping their stupid traditions that were created by men who believed that the world was flat and the Sun went around the World.

 

[Krsto]

Ten people fail to figure out the logic of the Trinity.

Most trinitarians fail to see the logic behind the trinity which is why they typically default to "It's a mystery" when you start pressing them on the finer details. Many trinitarians just come out and admit that it's not logical.