Jesus is God

[aikido7]

I have, as have MANY more qualified actual scholars.
The preponderance of evidence is clear about what Paul wrote.

Dictionary of Paul & His Letters by G.F. Hawthorne, R.P. Martin & D.G. Reid, eds.

Anytime a learned biblical scholar writes about his or her conjectures, there are plenty of other scholars whose conjectures are directly opposed to them.

But the evidence of some of Paul's letters not actually written by him is pretty well established today.

People who know one or more ancient languages and study textual coherence can tell when a section of or the entirety of a book is not from the original author. Its style and vocabulary are different and the theology might undergo a major change.

 

[Sancocho]

I have to wonder why so many Protestants can take such an immovable stance regarding their convictions in the face of truth. Is it a desire to be special before God? Is it hate of being a particular denomination or people in general? Or more benignly is it a belief that if God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit works in our life that our doctrine must somehow be without error?


In my own case I never have hated Protestants nor desired they go to hell nor much less ever thought I was special, and that is why I switched to a Protestant church when my understanding of faith was challenged. After all, I was taught by Bible and the Holy Spirit to seek out the Truth. After embracing Jesus I was no longer dominated by fear and could address any argument without prejudice.

 

[aikido7]

Anyone can be confused about a biblical verse but wholesale ignorance of verses, conflicting statements and logic that is incompatible with the Gospel has a diabolic feel to it in my opinion. The RCC has had to take a strong stance against heresies over the centuries and it's good to see others addressing them as well.

I am glad I don't feel alarmed or offended when I encounter different opinions and theologies from my own. I think my life is pretty well awesome as it is. I see no threats to the God I see in Jesus.

After all, Jesus himself said he "saw Satan fall from the sky like lightning."

God has already won. Be confident in your faith.

 

[StanJ]

Anytime a learned biblical scholar writes about his or her conjectures, there are plenty of other scholars whose conjectures are directly opposed to them.

But the evidence of some of Paul's letters not actually written by him is pretty well established today.

People who know one or more ancient languages and study textual coherence can tell when a section of or the entirety of a book is not from the original author. Its style and vocabulary are different and the theology might undergo a major change.

here's an old adage...Put up or shut up.

 

[StanJ]

There is a huge gap between the Holy Spirit and the spirit Christ Stan. That is what you do not see. Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit and POWER. Acts 10:38.

There is the Spirit of Christ, The Holy Spirit and the Father, all rolled into one keypurr.
So do you think taking one verse OUT of the context Peter was speaking in discards what confessed in Matt 16:16?
I see you have been a life long cherry picker.

 

[aikido7]

I have to wonder why so many Protestants can take such an immovable stance regarding their convictions in the face of truth. Is it a desire to be special before God? Is it hate of being a particular denomination or people in general? Or more benignly is it a belief that if God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit works in our life that our doctrine must somehow be without error?


In my own case I never have hated Protestants nor desired they go to hell nor much less ever thought I was special, and that is why I switched to a Protestant church when my understanding of faith was challenged. After all, I was taught by Bible and the Holy Spirit to seek out the Truth. After embracing Jesus I was no longer dominated by fear and could address any argument without prejudice.

Everyone sees different truths. God is the same, but our understanding and our interpretation of him changes--has always changed through history.

I don't think it seems like you are able to allow different opinions from your own. I think that makes life difficult.

 

[StanJ]

True, they used to kill folks who thought in a different way.

You need to come OUT of the past and start living in the present. That includes all your outdated and refuted beliefs.

 

[aikido7]

here's an old adage...Put up or shut up.

*sigh*

Here's some evidence for Pauline forgeries in the Bible:

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...-the-bible/the-quest-for-the-historical-paul/

If you are not threatened by historical research, you will find this scholarly attempt at assessing Paul interesting and helpful.
But if you take refuge in beliefs and theology to protect yourself from perceived attacks by facts, evidence and honest data then I wouldn't expect for you to go any further.

 

[everready]

*sigh*

Here's some evidence for Pauline forgeries in the Bible:

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...-the-bible/the-quest-for-the-historical-paul/

If you are not threatened by historical research, you will find this scholarly attempt at assessing Paul interesting and helpful.
But if you take refuge in beliefs and theology to protect yourself from perceived attacks by facts, evidence and honest data then I wouldn't expect for you to go any further.

What do you mean by forgeries, most research facts and evidence collected by the world is just more of hath God said.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?


everready

 

[aikido7]

What do you mean by forgeries, most research facts and evidence collected by the world is just more of hath God said.

By forgeries I mean that some of Paul's letters were written by later believers who signed their teacher's name to them to give them more authority. This was a common practice in antiquity.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?


everready

No. I believe Jesus is the incarnation of God, the definitive disclosure of God's character on earth. But he is not God. Most traditional believers have little to say when some of Jesus' actual speech is offered to them.

Jesus said "Why do you call me 'Good'? Only God is good."

The pattern in the New Testament seems to be that Jesus is pretty skittish about accepting some of the exalted titles placed upon him by his followers.

 

[StanJ]

*sigh*

Here's some evidence for Pauline forgeries in the Bible:

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...-the-bible/the-quest-for-the-historical-paul/

If you are not threatened by historical research, you will find this scholarly attempt at assessing Paul interesting and helpful.
But if you take refuge in beliefs and theology to protect yourself from perceived attacks by facts, evidence and honest data then I wouldn't expect for you to go any further.

Well not quite what I would call EVIDENCE. I had never heard of this fellow. You can find info to counter his claims in the following links.

http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/11Church/TeachWhoAuthor1_2Timothy.aspx

http://tyndalearchive.com/scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/letters.htm

 

[StanJ]

By forgeries I mean that some of Paul's letters were written by later believers who signed their teacher's name to them to give them more authority. This was a common practice in antiquity.

No. I believe Jesus is the incarnation of God, the definitive disclosure of God's character on earth. But he is not God. Most traditional believers have little to say when some of Jesus' actual speech is offered to them.

Jesus said "Why do you call me 'Good'? Only God is good."

The pattern in the New Testament seems to be that Jesus is pretty skittish about accepting some of the exalted titles placed upon him by his followers.

Incarnate means man born WITH God as his spirit.

He said Why? to show WHO He actually was, not just a teacher and definitely not just a man. He was much more than the Pharisees or teachers of the Law understood.

 

[daqq]

Hey, you! I really appreciate your posts and your use of the original language of the Bible. You seem to care enough to go as deep as you can and to follow the truth wherever it leads you.

I admire that. I am just too old to take all that trouble. I find it much easier for me to read a lot of conflicting voices of honest and competent historical researchers of the Bible to help me figure out different truths and ideas.

It's the lazy way to study, I realize. Anyway, I just wanted to tip my imaginary hat to you!

:thumb: It's all good so long as you have love . . . :surf:

----------------------------------------------------------

Does it? You're the one that said it was NOT in the verse.

I never said any such thing. In fact I quoted the passage in Greek that clearly contains "ego eimi", (which everyone except for apparently you knows that it means "I am"). You are a liar, a slanderer, and a murderer just like your father. For you neither believe nor practice the Testimony of Yeshua, and as the Master says, Those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: these are the things which defile a man", (Matthew 15:18-19a). Do you not understand that murder is not only something committed with the hands but, in the doctrine of Yeshua, murders, (plural) come forth from the mouth because they proceed from the heart? Therefore, Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and no murderer such as yourself, full of hate speech and hateful lies, has eternal life abiding in him, (1 John 3:15). When it comes down to skin for skin; Stan the man proves he will murder a brother to save his own reputation.

It simply does not say that in the Greek texts. Look it up for yourself; "was" is simply a twisting of what is actually there because the so-called scholars do not understand the Testimony of Yeshua and apply it to what they read. Yeshua clearly and emphatically states that all the Prophets and the Torah PROPHESIED until Yochanan. This means that the Torah was not even of full force until Messiah came and interpreted all of it for us. What the passage you quoted actually says is thus:

"Truly, truly, I say unto you, I am before Abraham comes to pass!"

There is no "was" in this statement:

John 8:58 (W/H)
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
http://biblehub.com/text/john/8-58.htm

γενέσθαι (genesthai) — 37 Occurrences
http://biblehub.com/greek/genesthai_1096.htm

:sheep:

Another example of your foot in mouth disease.

I cut out the ONLY part worth addressing daqq.

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ἰησοῦς ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.


I've colour coded the representative words so you have no excuse.
"was born" comes from "γενέσθαι" and means just that.

In fact the Greek word for "was" is in this verse at the very end, as "εἰμί", but as you don't obviously KNOW Greek nor how to properly render and interpret it, this error is not surprising. Greek is NOT translated word to word which ANYONE with a basic knowledge of languages should know.

Please place you call again.
Παρακαλώ τοποθετήστε και πάλι την κλήση σας
Parakaló topothetí ste kai páli tin klísi sas

Hmmm, so "ἐγὼ εἰμί" does not mean "I am", O wise king? :crackup:

:sheep:

PS ~ If you had looked at the posted links you might have seen your error.
Here they are AGAIN:

John 8:58 (W/H)
εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.
http://biblehub.com/text/john/8-58.htm

γενέσθαι (genesthai) — 37 Occurrences
http://biblehub.com/greek/genesthai_1096.htm

It seems you are of about the same caliber as the "scholars" in whom you trust. :crackup:

:sheep:

 

[Sancocho]

Everyone sees different truths. God is the same, but our understanding and our interpretation of him changes--has always changed through history.

Orthodox Christianity's understand of God has not changed.

 

[StanJ]

I never said any such thing. In fact I quoted the passage in Greek that clearly contains "ego eimi", (which everyone except for apparently you knows that it means "I am"). You are a liar, a slanderer, and a murderer just like your father. For you neither believe nor practice the Testimony of Yeshua, and as the Master says, Those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: these are the things which defile a man", (Matthew 15:18-19a). Do you not understand that murder is not only something committed with the hands but, in the doctrine of Yeshua, murders, (plural) come forth from the mouth because they proceed from the heart? Therefore, Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and no murderer such as yourself, full of hate speech and hateful lies, has eternal life abiding in him, (1 John 3:15). When it comes down to skin for skin; Stan the man proves he will murder a brother to save his own reputation.

Did you not say the following daqq?

It simply does not say that in the Greek texts.
There is no "was" in this statement:

Now DEAL with what I wrote and stop all your pontificating.

 

[aikido7]

Well not quite what I would call EVIDENCE. I had never heard of this fellow. You can find info to counter his claims in the following links.

http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/11Church/TeachWhoAuthor1_2Timothy.aspx

http://tyndalearchive.com/scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/letters.htm

At least you're honest. You have never heard of him.

But you draw a ridiculous conclusion from this fact, in my opinion. Because you have never heard of him, that makes him dishonest or of no account?

You are not thinking, in my opinion.

 

[aikido7]

Incarnate means man born WITH God as his spirit.

He said Why? to show WHO He actually was, not just a teacher and definitely not just a man. He was much more than the Pharisees or teachers of the Law understood.

Albert Schweitzer, author of "The Quest for the Historical Jesus":

He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lakeside.

He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same words: "Follow thou me!" and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfill for our time.

He commands.

And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is.

Published in 1901

 

[everready]

By forgeries I mean that some of Paul's letters were written by later believers who signed their teacher's name to them to give them more authority. This was a common practice in antiquity.

No. I believe Jesus is the incarnation of God, the definitive disclosure of God's character on earth. But he is not God. Most traditional believers have little to say when some of Jesus' actual speech is offered to them.

Jesus said "Why do you call me 'Good'? Only God is good."

The pattern in the New Testament seems to be that Jesus is pretty skittish about accepting some of the exalted titles placed upon him by his followers.

i can understand why you believe those lies about Paul the Apostle after ready this commentary on James Tabor, he's a false teacher.

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/reviews/tabor_dynasty.htm


Now i have a question, who sent Moses to tell Pharaoh, let my people go?


everready

 

[StanJ]

At least you're honest. You have never heard of him.
But you draw a ridiculous conclusion from this fact, in my opinion. Because you have never heard of him, that makes him dishonest or of no account?
You are not thinking, in my opinion.

Not at all what I said aikido...I read his article and disagreed with it and posted what I know to be factual. They are examples, not ALL.

 

[StanJ]

Albert Schweitzer, author of "The Quest for the Historical Jesus":
He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lakeside.
He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same words: "Follow thou me!" and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfill for our time.
He commands.
And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is.
Published in 1901

Yes I know of Schweitzer, what is your point?

All He is doing here is rewording what he obviously knew of in John 1, but I tend to want God to get all the glory so I use scripture to show the truth of anything. Jesus did the same thing.