Jesus Christ is God's Predestinated, Elected Man

[Grosnick Marowbe]

In the helpless, lost state man finds himself in-- a sinner with no desire for God-- only God's grace will save him. How can one hear who is enslaved to sin, incapable of understanding, loves darkness, and dead in trespasses and sins? How do you reconcile these plain statements of Scripture about the moral state of the lost with your view that you must choose to have faith in the Good News? If you chose rightly and another did not, then what accounts for your enlightened view? Did God draw you more than another? If so, how does God escape the usual anti-Calvinist charge of being unfair?

The unbeliever...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Where in these plain descriptions of the deplorable state of the unbeliever is this human element of choosing wisely you lay claim to?

Is there some remnant of grace remaining in fallen man which brings him only to the brink of salvation but must finally be completed by an act of the unregenerated (though "enlightened") human will? How enlightened by this seed of grace is the will anyway, since it may also finally decide that the gospel isn't true, after all? If all receive the same amount of this element of grace, then why is it effective only in some, and not all? Would not all receive the same portion (you know, God being "fair" and all of that)? Then since all receive the same portion of prevenient grace implies that there is something within people that would be the determining factor in whether or not they respond positively to the influence of prevenient grace and say yes to the gospel. Would not this act of believing then, become something about which such people could boast? (Eph 2: 8-9, 1 Cor 28-29 ).

AMR

I don't have time now to post anything of real value. I'll peruse this post later tonight and get back to you. However, I'll tell you this, you surely are a full fledged Calvinist, by the book.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Spurgeon was a mere human being. He had a right to his own opinion. So do you and I. There is no mention of faith in his writing?

He had plenty to say on the matter. You may find this one edifying: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.php

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Read some of "Totton's" posts in this thread. She's one of the typical Calvinists I've ALWAYS run into! Also, look over some of "B57s" illogical sense of Calvinism?

Well we are old folk and can look past the overly enthusiastic and often wrong in their enthusiasm. "Always" is already logically moving to "often" as it were, given that you and I are having a discussion, no? I think another fellow that emulates the right behavior is Lon. Dialogos is another fellow coming along quite nicely when the discussion is civilized. So now you have three folks. If it be the will of God, "often" will soon become "sometimes" if we move in the right circles here and about. I will count that as a success no matter how one views things being discussed.

I will readily admit to having a caustic side when encountering blanket statements of just plain error about the things I hold dear. I just think persons making these sort of sweeping generalities need to stop, think, study, and make an effort to sincerely understand the topic at hand versus the vitriolic rhetoric and insults they are casting about, so I will take them to task on their own levels more than I really should be doing. I consider it a privilege to be able to discuss the realities of my faith with others. I do my best to represent the actual positions of the Reformed believer never wanting to lead another into error about these things. I pray often that others would at least return the privilege I extend to them. I have tried to remember that mud slung is ground lost in any discussion, but sometimes it gets the best of me. For that I apologize to you and anyone else that has been on the receiving end.

AMR

 

[beloved57]

Right, not your work:

Not your believing
Not your receiving
Not your faith


Scripture says that unless one is Born Again, their own works of righteousness are as filthy rags Is. 64:6,
because the carnal man is hostile [echthra] to God, in opposition; hatred toward Him.


Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh [unregenerate] cannot please God.


But those to whom the Spirit gives New Birth, they are given the Fruit of Faith Gal. 5:22.

Heb. 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


The kind of faith / belief that pleases God is a Work of the Holy Spirit given in in New Birth to those who were Chosen to Salvation.


2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

~~~~~

Yes, he teaches salvation by works, by what a person does, that is false religion.

 

[Nihilo]

Providentially

Speaking of which, it might be helpful to communicate your position by contrasting it with what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us about Divine Providence. (The whole page I'm linking to is full of great things IMO, but I'm particularly curious about the differences between your position and the Texts on the page starting at Text 302 and following.)

It's a little bit of a read, and if it's too much material to cover all at once, I can try to cull it down to what may be the most significant differences according to me, but then I'd be introducing bias unwittingly I'm sure, and I'd prefer to avoid that.

To sum it up in a sentence:

Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.
​

Isn't this the crux of the matter? I believe the above, and I think that you'll find in it the one solution to the problem that everybody else has with the conflict between our Maker's complete sovereignty over His creation, and our freedom. It is literally solved right in that sentence. The rest of the page is frosting on the cake.

That's the key. Deliberation. The relative term used in a murder is quote-unquote malice aforethought. It wasn't a sudden outburst, but a plan, a conscious, freely chosen course of action. Deliberate, deliberation. The opposite of inadvertent, but not unintentional. Inadvertently, people make intentional choices. Intentional and intentionally doesn't necessarily but can mean, deliberate and deliberately.

It means that when people do evil things, it is intentional in the sense that we believe that we all possess a basic morality within us, as creatures of a moral Maker. We are created in His image.

It may be inadvertent. And not deliberate. It is still intentional.

Deliberation is spending conscious time thinking about it. That's deliberation and the opposite of inadvertent, and it is not necessarily unintentional because we are intentional creatures, even when we are unconscious of being so, we are created in His image.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

So, you want to believe that God sends his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world and then blinds and deafens some so that they can't hear and believe the Gospel and be saved.

I am not sure how you made that conclusion from what I presented from Scripture, Robert. For what I demonstrated from inspired Scripture was the plain indictment of God of the state of the lost after Adam. God is bringing out a great multitude no man can number from their fallen state into His Kingdom. He is not obliged to do so, yet, for His own reasons and glory, set in motion a redemptive plan for a race of humanity contemplated as already fallen and deserving of no mercy whatsoever.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

God created Adam, the first man. The Bible says: "Romans 5:12--"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Adam had the free-will to choose to sin, and he did. Adam was the "Prototype" of a human being. After the fall, he and Eve were removed from the garden. Man was hence forth, to till the land and Eve was to have pain in child birth. Where does it say in Scripture, that man lost his free-will? What else did Adam lose, if anything? Adam and Eve lived and died after the fall. We live and die today. They both had bodies like ours after the fall. Cain chose to kill Abel. That episode certainly showed the continuation of mans ability to sin. Adam chose to sin and Cain chose to sin. History shows, that men have chosen to continue to sin. If Adam had the free-will to choose sin in the garden and every other human since, have had the free-will to do as they please (make choices) then, what makes you think "mankind" lost their "free-will" after being ousted from the garden? Is there Scripture to back that idea up? I mean Scripture that can't be made to sound like your assertion? In other words, it mustn't be vague. Remember, you must use Scripture that is clear and concise? After all, this is a rather, "meaty" discussion. (Debate)

This assumes that Adam was not our federal representative, hence, the one made by God as a perfect representative of man, made mutable, able to sin or not to sin. Adam was placed on probation with but one negative duty. He failed. As the representative of all mankind to come after him, his failure became our failure. We have all sinned in Adam, just as if we all were there with him in that garden. As I have stated using Scripture the moral state of all those in Adam is but a moral state of able to sin more or sin less, never able not to not sin. Adam's inclinations before his fall were mutable, he could be inclined to not sin or to sin. As Scripture plainly states, the lost are not able to not sin, for all their inclinations are towards the darkness of sin, yes, all the lost are literally enslaved to sin. I am not seeing how you can overcome what Scripture clearly states about the condition of the lost (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14) in your view that man still retains some moral ability to choose wisely, to not sin without some radical change being worked within the lost beforehand by God (Eze. 36:26) that would remove this enslavement.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Someday I'm going to withdraw a thousand dollars from the bank. Then I'm going to find a person who is stone deaf and stand behind them, out of sight. I'll say to the deaf person, "I've got a thousand dollars here. It's yours free if you simply accept it." If they don't accept it, then to Hell with them for not believing me. Or I might take that thousand dollars, find a completely blind person and stand in front of them with a big sign that says "I've got $1,000 for you. Simply accept it and it's yours." If they don't accept it, then to Hell with them too.

No. Let's run with the deaf scenario a wee bit more carefully.

The whole world in your example is deaf because at one time, the first man, made upright by you (you are God in this example, no?) was not deaf, but able to become deaf, sinned against you. When you made this upright, but mutable hearing man, you told him to enjoy all that was made for him, but whatever he does, he must not consume the fruit of but one delightfully attractive tree in his midst. The man should obediently enjoy the communion he had with you (you are his maker, right?) for a small probationary period of time and then you would reward (this is a covenant of works: do this and live) him with perfect hearing and eternal life in the perfect world communing with you.

For reasons we will likely never know, sin entered into that first man, and he failed in his probation. Accordingly he became deaf and eventually died. That man's sin plunged all of that first man's progeny into deafness and death, for it was just as if all men were with that first man in that garden. All that first man's progeny will be born deaf.

But, thankfully, you are merciful, but not obliged to be so merciful as to rob you of your own holiness, which includes your expressed wrath when disobeyed. You are also not caught by surprise by these turn of events, for you actually made it so that they happened just as you willed it to be. Naturally, you did not make that first man sin, rather you made that first man upright, possessing a will able to choose rightly or wrongly. You also knew exactly what that man would do, but your knowing was not the direct cause of that first man's sin.

Given the fall of this first man, you get some money and, knowing the deaf cannot hear at all (they are not partially deaf, but actually really deaf), and for no other reasons than your good pleasure and not in consideration of any foreseen merit of others, you replace the deaf ears of a great number that no one can number with ears that can hear most of the time, as they are not yet perfected ears. Now at that moment of having new ears those of whom their ears have been replaced cannot not hear your loud proclamation for free money. These hearing ones will actually want to take your money. In fact, you went to all this trouble of replacing these deaf ears with good ears so much so that you will actually stuff the money in their pockets. After all, you are not wasting your money, as you are a perfect steward of all your attributes.

Those so granted this monetary possession by your efficacious act of giving them new ears will genuinely want to give you all the credit for their newfound hearing. In fact, you will make sure that they do so, for after all, as noted, you are not one to waste your efforts. Of course, you know some of these newly hearing folk will do much with what you have granted them, while others may not do as much, yet they each and every one will live and do this (covenant of grace) for you and through you own efforts to see to it that they do so. And, lest it be overlooked, all these folks will never, ever, be deaf again, for as we keep reminding the reader, you are not in any way wasteful of your gifts.

Now as for the remainder of those with deaf ears, you express your perfect holiness by leaving them in their deaf state. After all, they are deaf because they were born deaf, from the sin of the first man, from whom they all came, and they actually like being deaf and are incapable of wanting to not be deaf. Hence, your perfect justice is made manifest for all to see, making your mercy ever more sweet to the hearing ones, ever stirring them up to do more with what they have been granted.

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

In the helpless, lost state man finds himself in-- a sinner with no desire for God-- only God's grace will save him. How can one hear who is enslaved to sin, incapable of understanding, loves darkness, and dead in trespasses and sins? How do you reconcile these plain statements of Scripture about the moral state of the lost with your view that you must choose to have faith in the Good News? If you chose rightly and another did not, then what accounts for your enlightened view? Did God draw you more than another? If so, how does God escape the usual anti-Calvinist charge of being unfair?

The unbeliever...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Where in these plain descriptions of the deplorable state of the unbeliever is this human element of choosing wisely you lay claim to?

Is there some remnant of grace remaining in fallen man which brings him only to the brink of salvation but must finally be completed by an act of the unregenerated (though "enlightened") human will? How enlightened by this seed of grace is the will anyway, since it may also finally decide that the gospel isn't true, after all? If all receive the same amount of this element of grace, then why is it effective only in some, and not all? Would not all receive the same portion (you know, God being "fair" and all of that)? Then since all receive the same portion of prevenient grace implies that there is something within people that would be the determining factor in whether or not they respond positively to the influence of prevenient grace and say yes to the gospel. Would not this act of believing then, become something about which such people could boast? (Eph 2: 8-9, 1 Cor 28-29 ).

AMR

There is so much material here, that I'm forced to dissect it bit by bit? First of all, you start the first sentence speaking about the "Total depravity" of mankind. That man cannot do anything but evil/sin. Let's make a division at this time, between, Spiritual good and worldly good. A man who isn't saved has the ability to do, what I'll call: Worldly good. Examples; helping the poor, loving others, providing for their families, giving financial help to less privileged folks, sacrificing for the good of others, kind gestures, working in a soup kitchen, etc. These are ALL good things.

However, they are of no Spiritual significance, no rewards to be handed out when standing before Jesus Christ at what's called, The Bema Seat. The Bema seat meaning the judgement seat of Christ. This period of time is only for the "True Believers." (The Saved) The unsaved will stand before God the Father and be judged according to their works and cast into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his fallen angels. Unsaved man is capable of doing good things in this fleshly world of ours. We see it every day. Not ALL men are depraved, creatures of darkness seeking the blood of the innocent. Unsaved man is capable of choosing "Worldly" good and bad.

The "True Believers" are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit creates the fruit within the Believer and leads them to make good choices and perform good works/deeds. These good works/deeds and fruit are to the Glory of God. At the final judgment of the True Believers, they will receive rewards for what they did while in the flesh. However, they will not suffer condemnation, true judgement, or any form of punishment. After all, they have no sins, they're in the Body of Christ, and Christ is in them and they are in Christ. They receive eternal life in the presence of God for all of eternity. The unsaved receive nothing for their worldly good works/deeds. Isaiah 64:6 states: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

Without Christ in them and they in Him, their righteousness (from God's standpoint) is as filthy rags/worthless. Worldly good works/deeds are worthless before our righteous God. The unsaved can choose to do good works/deeds, but those same good works will not gain them eternal life. The good works/deeds of the True Believer will benefit by receiving rewards at the "Judgement seat of Christ." (The Bema Seat) I realize that Calvinists/Reformed folks see it another way. Well, now it's your turn. This is just the beginning of this thread debate.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

A man who isn't saved has the ability to do, what I'll call: Worldly good. Examples; helping the poor, loving others, providing for their families, giving financial help to less privileged folks, sacrificing for the good of others, kind gestures, working in a soup kitchen, etc. These are ALL good things.

Civil good acts are but the providence of God in restraining the evil pervading every breath of the lost. These acts are never done by the lost with the proper motives, to glorify God.

Unsaved man is capable of doing good things in this fleshly world of ours. We see it every day. Not ALL men are depraved, creatures of darkness seeking the blood of the innocent. Unsaved man is capable of choosing "Worldly" good and bad.

All the actions of the non-believer are not good in the eyes of God. These acts are filthy rags in God's eyes for these acts are not done in His name and for His glory. You are trying to make a case that the lost can actually not sin, yet Scripture declares these attempts at good deeds to be an unpleasant foul odor to God.

Without Christ in them and they in Him, their righteousness (from God's standpoint) is as filthy rags/worthless. Worldly good works/deeds are worthless before our righteous God. The unsaved can choose to do good works/deeds, but those same good works will not gain them eternal life.

How does this make your claim that the non-believer is able to not sin? It appears to me you are actually making my own point about the moral inability of the lost. The inability of the lost touches every facet of their nature: mind, will, emotions, body. The non-believer's inability to not sin does not mean that they are as completely evil as they might be, in everything they do, or that as a result of the Fall, they are unable to perform any actions at all that may be considered civil good (from a standpoint of conformance to moral law and God-given conscience). Yet it is only in relation to God can the "goodness" of human actions truly be judged. Although fallen persons are capable of externally good acts (acts that are good for society), they cannot do anything really good, i.e., pleasing to God (Romans 8:8). God, however, looks on the heart. And from His ultimate standpoint, fallen man has no goodness, in thought, word, or deed. He is therefore incapable of contributing anything to his salvation.

It is good that most non-believers do not kill and that some non-believers perform acts of benevolence. What we mean when we call such actions "good" is that they more or less conform to the external pattern of life that God has commanded in Scripture.

However, such outward conformity to the revealed will of God is not righteousness in relation to God. It is not done out of reliance on Him or for His glory. God is not trusted for the resources, though God gives them all. Nor is God's honor exalted, even though that's His will in all things (1 Cor. 10:31). Therefore even these "good" acts are part of our rebellion and are not "good" in the sense that really counts in the end, in relation to God. Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin (Rom. 14:23). This is a radical indictment of all natural "virtue" that does not flow from a heart humbly relying on God's grace.

Scripture portrays fallen man as the walking dead (Ephesians 2:1-2); blinded to the truth of the gospel (2 Cor 4:4); enslaved and led by sinful, fleshly desires (Eph 2:3, John 8:34, James 1:4-15), and also by Satan (1 John 5:19; Eph 2:2, 2 Tim 2:26); in the non-believers' consciences awareness that the things they do are wrong, yet suppressing the truth of that knowledge as they progressively sink into evil (Romans 1:18-32), and store up for themselves the wrath of God (Romans 2:5). In their unrighteousness, they are not seeking God (Romans 3:10-11) nor do they acknowledge and worship Him; rather, they worship and follow after gods we have made (Romans 1:21-23). The non-believers are alienated from the life of God; disobedient, led astray, envious, malicious, hating, and being hated (Titus 3:3); not only are they darkened in understanding and hard-hearted, but also they personify "darkness" (Ephesians 4:18, Colossians 1:13,21, Ephesians 5:8); they are separated from Christ, excluded from God's covenant promises, without hope and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:12). And unless they believe, they remain under the wrath of God (John 3:36). Anyone "in the flesh" (unregenerated, not "born again", not believing in Our Lord) cannot and will not please God (Romans 8:8). If what you are claiming is true, that the non-believer can actually not sin regularly, you are actually claiming God is pleased with the non-believer.

So, apart from Christ we were dead (Ephesians 2:1), dead (Colossians 2:13), and dead (Ephesians 2:5).

Ephesians 2:4-9 (NKJV)
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Ephesians 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Colossians 2:13-15 (NKJV)
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.​

Unless God changes the disposition of the non-believer's sinful heart, he will never choose to cooperate with grace or embrace Christ in faith. These are the very things to which the flesh is indisposed. If God merely offers to change the heart, what will that accomplish as long as the heart remains opposed to Him? If God offers grace while the non-believer is a slave to sin and still in the flesh, what good is the offer? Saving grace does not offer liberation, it liberates. This is what makes grace so gracious: God unilaterally and monergistically does for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

AMR

 

[beloved57]

This assumes that Adam was not our federal representative, hence, the one made by God as a perfect representative of man, made mutable, able to sin or not to sin. Adam was placed on probation with but one negative duty. He failed. As the representative of all mankind to come after him, his failure became our failure. We have all sinned in Adam, just as if we all were there with him in that garden. As I have stated using Scripture the moral state of all those in Adam is but a moral state of able to sin more or sin less, never able not to not sin. Adam's inclinations before his fall were mutable, he could be inclined to not sin or to sin. As Scripture plainly states, the lost are not able to not sin, for all their inclinations are towards the darkness of sin, yes, all the lost are literally enslaved to sin. I am not seeing how you can overcome what Scripture clearly states about the condition of the lost (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14) in your view that man still retains some moral ability to choose wisely, to not sin without some radical change being worked within the lost beforehand by God (Eze. 36:26) that would remove this enslavement.

AMR

Adam was not the Federal Representative of the non elect but of the seed of Abraham !

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Civil good acts are but the providence of God in restraining the evil pervading every breath of the lost. These acts are never done by the lost with the proper motives, to glorify God.

No offence to you AMR, but, I can't see this "debate" going anywhere. We'll have to agree to disagree about everything. You're a lifelong, dyed in the wool Calvinist and I'm a non-denominational, Grace Gospel/ Paul's Gospel, Christ centered, Bible trusting, free-will believing, Member of the Body of Christ kind of guy. We're, in no respect going to have a meeting of the minds. My beliefs don't mix well with your beliefs. I have the same problem with Catholics, Occultists, Gnostic's, Spiritualists, most of the Protestant denominations, Charismatic/Pentecostals, Church of Christ, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc, etc.

I believe in order to receive eternal life one must:

1) Hear the Grace Gospel. (Paul's Gospel)
2) Realize you're a lost sinner.
3) Place all your faith in Christ as your Savior.
4) Be sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
5) Be baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
6) Receive the righteousness of Christ.

Once all of that has transpired, by the work of the Holy Spirit, one is considered a child of God and has access to eternal life. A True Believer cannot lose his position in the Body of Christ. When they die, they'll instantly be with the Lord in Heaven. God's Grace, forgiveness of sins through Christ's death and resurrection, and eternal life is available to everyone in this "Dispensation of Grace" period. There's no such thing as, God choosing those who He wants to be saved and sending the rest into eternal damnation. That is a misinterpretation of Scripture, and a false doctrine. I believe Calvinism is a cult like belief system. It attempts to turn people away from the "True Gospel."

Many have been blinded by this "belief system" that states that, God chose a certain amount of people to save (called the Elect) and the rest are sent to eternal damnation. The Calvinist, supposed Elect are usually, arrogant, angry, and hyper-sensitive to having their "belief system" questioned. The Calvinist religion must change the character and intent of the God of the Bible, in order to have Him fit their theology. They see no "free-will" anywhere in the entire Bible, even though it's right there in plain sight. I would urge everyone to read the entire Bible, cover to cover, name by name, word for word.

I would also suggest that you say a prayer to God in Jesus name that He will give you wisdom and knowledge in order to understand what you're about to read. This is so you won't get caught up in any false doctrine, such as, Calvinism/Reformed theology. Have a one on one with God as you read His Holy written word. (The Holy Bible.) The Bible IS the inspired word of God.

 

[Nanja]

Yes, he teaches salvation by works, by what a person does, that is false religion.

Yes he does, it's antichrist!

~~~~~

 

[musterion]

No. Let's run with the deaf scenario a wee bit more carefully.

The whole world in your example is deaf because at one time, the first man, made upright by you (you are God in this example, no?) was not deaf, but able to become deaf, sinned against you. When you made this upright, but mutable hearing man, you told him to enjoy all that was made for him, but whatever he does, he must not consume the fruit of but one delightfully attractive tree in his midst. The man should obediently enjoy the communion he had with you (you are his maker, right?) for a small probationary period of time and then you would reward (this is a covenant of works: do this and live) him with perfect hearing and eternal life in the perfect world communing with you.

For reasons we will likely never know, sin entered into that first man, and he failed in his probation. Accordingly he became deaf and eventually died. That man's sin plunged all of that first man's progeny into deafness and death, for it was just as if all men were with that first man in that garden. All that first man's progeny will be born deaf.

But, thankfully, you are merciful, but not obliged to be so merciful as to rob you of your own holiness, which includes your expressed wrath when disobeyed. You are also not caught by surprise by these turn of events, for you actually made it so that they happened just as you willed it to be. Naturally, you did not make that first man sin, rather you made that first man upright, possessing a will able to choose rightly or wrongly. You also knew exactly what that man would do, but your knowing was not the direct cause of that first man's sin.

Given the fall of this first man, you get some money and, knowing the deaf cannot hear at all (they are not partially deaf, but actually really deaf), and for no other reasons than your good pleasure and not in consideration of any foreseen merit of others, you replace the deaf ears of a great number that no one can number with ears that can hear most of the time, as they are not yet perfected ears. Now at that moment of having new ears those of whom their ears have been replaced cannot not hear your loud proclamation for free money. These hearing ones will actually want to take your money. In fact, you went to all this trouble of replacing these deaf ears with good ears so much so that you will actually stuff the money in their pockets. After all, you are not wasting your money, as you are a perfect steward of all your attributes.

Those so granted this monetary possession by your efficacious act of giving them new ears will genuinely want to give you all the credit for their newfound hearing. In fact, you will make sure that they do so, for after all, as noted, you are not one to waste your efforts. Of course, you know some of these newly hearing folk will do much with what you have granted them, while others may not do as much, yet they each and every one will live and do this (covenant of grace) for you and through you own efforts to see to it that they do so. And, lest it be overlooked, all these folks will never, ever, be deaf again, for as we keep reminding the reader, you are not in any way wasteful of your gifts.

Now as for the remainder of those with deaf ears, you express your perfect holiness by leaving them in their deaf state. After all, they are deaf because they were born deaf, from the sin of the first man, from whom they all came, and they actually like being deaf and are incapable of wanting to not be deaf. Hence, your perfect justice is made manifest for all to see, making your mercy ever more sweet to the hearing ones, ever stirring them up to do more with what they have been granted.

AMR

In theory, all reprobates who reject Christ (i.e., all who hear of Him) will reject Him because they cannot do otherwise. Whichever strain of -lapsarian you may be, that is a fact. They can't, so they won't.

Is that rejection of Christ what will damn them at the Great White Throne?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes he does, it's antichrist!

~~~~~

:rotfl:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes, he teaches salvation by works, by what a person does, that is false religion.

:rotfl:

 

[beloved57]

Yes he does, it's antichrist!

~~~~~

Exactly!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism is a cult. Its "god" and idol is Calvinism. Calvinism needs Scripture to fall in line with their belief system. They misinterpret Scripture to fit their religion. They must change the Character of God as well. They follow "Another Gospel" and not the "True Gospel." They believe that God chose a certain amount of humanity to be saved, they are called, "The Elect." The rest of humanity is destined for Hell, according to their "religion." They also believe that, mankind is so depraved that he will not seek after God and cannot receive eternal life because, Their "god" will not allow them to receive the Gospel through faith. They believe that man has no free-will of his own therefore, God decided to choose a certain amount of "Elect" before the foundation of the world. Thereby, condemning the rest to eternal damnation.

The true Gospel is, Christ died for the sins of all mankind and was resurrected. Those who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior are guaranteed eternal life in Heaven. God doesn't desire to have anyone perish. He wants all men to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for our sins. Christ indeed died for the sins of all mankind, however, only those who hear the Gospel and place all their faith in Christ, will benefit from God's Grace. Salvation is a free gift from God.Don't let the false doctrines of Calvinism or any other cult tell you any different. Christ died and resurrected for all the sinful people in the world.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No offence to you AMR, but, I can't see this "debate" going anywhere. We'll have to agree to disagree about everything. You're a lifelong, dyed in the wool Calvinist and I'm a non-denominational, Grace Gospel/ Paul's Gospel, Christ centered, Bible trusting, free-will believing, Member of the Body of Christ kind of guy. We're, in no respect going to have a meeting of the minds. My beliefs don't mix well with your beliefs. I have the same problem with Catholics, Occultists, Gnostic's, Spiritualists, most of the Protestant denominations, Charismatic/Pentecostals, Church of Christ, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc, etc.

I believe in order to receive eternal life one must:

1) Hear the Grace Gospel. (Paul's Gospel)
2) Realize you're a lost sinner.
3) Place all your faith in Christ as your Savior.
4) Be sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
5) Be baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
6) Receive the righteousness of Christ.

GM,

A debate on doctrinal matters necessarily includes appeal to the whole counsel of the ground of all doctrine, the Scripture. I have been making said appeals while you seem to be only stating "I believe..." without mounting an argument supported by Scripture that can be examined. If all you are going to do is assert your beliefs, then of course the discussion is at a standstill and we are back to what I have originally observed last October concerning your proclivity of just making grand sweeping statements about Calvinism (even as your recent insult in the post immediately above). I get that doing so serves some purpose for you, but as relates to iron sharpening iron, no edification of the saints can spring from such behavior. As things stand, I am forced to conclude one of us is actually trying to debate the matters before us, the other is only wanting to have a casual conversation. If there comes a time when you want to engage at a deeper level about Calvinism, I can only pray with hope you would know that there are not a few of us here and about willing and able to accommodate you.

I appreciate your taking the time with me and look forward to future efforts.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

In theory, all reprobates who reject Christ (i.e., all who hear of Him) will reject Him because they cannot do otherwise. Whichever strain of -lapsarian you may be, that is a fact. They can't, so they won't.

Is that rejection of Christ what will damn them at the Great White Throne?

Reprobates are so because they have rejected what has been plainly revealed (for example, see Romans 1). They are not reprobates because God declared them to be so for no other reason than they exist. Rather their state of sin and continued rejection of the light around them condemns them. God owes them only His holy justice, not mercy. People suffering the eternal punishment of God are exactly where they want to be and they continue to gnash their teeth (snarling as angry dogs) at God for eternity, thereby their eternal punishment proceeds accordingly. The gates of hell are locked from the inside. Such are the actual facts, musterion.

AMR