Jesus Christ is God's Predestinated, Elected Man

[Nihilo]

Providentially

Speaking of which, it might be helpful to communicate your position by contrasting it with what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us about Divine Providence. (The whole page I'm linking to is full of great things IMO, but I'm particularly curious about the differences between your position and the Texts on the page starting at Text 302 and following.)

It's a little bit of a read, and if it's too much material to cover all at once, I can try to cull it down to what may be the most significant differences according to me, but then I'd be introducing bias unwittingly I'm sure, and I'd prefer to avoid that.

 

[Totton Linnet]

No where in the Bible does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall.

What he lost was his relationship with God.

*
No where does it say God ever gave him Freewill....God said "thou shalt not" that negates freewill

 

[Robert Pate]

*
No where does it say God ever gave him Freewill....God said "thou shalt not" that negates freewill

Of course he had free will. Did he not sin against his creator?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No where in the Bible does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall.
What he lost was his relationship with God.

Scripture, say Romans 1, notwithstanding of course. :AMR:

On the state of the unbeliever the full counsel of Holy Writ seems quite perspicuous, Robert. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone with one of flesh (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe and then irrevocably evidence the first fruits of their regeneration—faith and repentance.

We should be in awe that God saves anyone, for all are born fallen in Adam and deserve no mercy from God. The miracle is that God mercifully saves even one person, and not the great many that cannot be numbered. Would that all give God all the glory (one-hundred percent) for their salvation rather than clinging on to some humanistic notion of their own wisdom, their supposed openness to being "wooed" by the Holy Spirit, choosing rightly while their neighbor chooses wrongly, etc.

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We are all consigned under sin, and by the way people speak about sin and choosing to sin as though it is something man will do, but the horrible fact is that it is something that man has already chosen...man's sin is in the past, he is ALREADY DOOMED.

Nobuddy deserves anything from God.

But God out of His own mercy and grace has determined to save some....if you are in that "some" the only thing you ought to feel is profound gratitude...not be whining about supposed injustice of God in the manner in which He has PREdetermined to save WHO?

The weak, the poor, the foolish, those who are nothing in this world.

God did not predestine man's sin, He DID predestine man's salvation.

But predestiny and election is not unto salvation but unto sonship and conformity to Christ, of course we must first be saved to be conformed. But our predestiny and election to conformity to Christ does not exclude others from being saved.

You were PREDESTINED to be conformed to God's Son...why doesn't that please you? it pleases me right well.

No comment. This is not worth my time and effort. I've got better things to do, than argue with you.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes it was God drawing you, God draws ALL men to Christ, some unto salvation [in your case] others unto judgement. YOU say you could have resisted, I say you couldn't.

It is ALL of God from start to finish "God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure"

You think it is your will but it is God working in you.

You're one of those "angry" Calvinists I mentioned to AMR about. He's, at least respectful. You, on the other hand, are not. Perhaps it's your youth? Twenty somethings think they know it all.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Can you explain how you come to this assessment of Calvinism? Please point me to where in the WCF that such a view is possible. You are erecting a straw man here, not an actual argument.

AMR

Read some of "Totton's" posts in this thread. She's one of the typical Calvinists I've ALWAYS run into! Also, look over some of "B57s" illogical sense of Calvinism?

 

[Robert Pate]

Scripture, say Romans 1, notwithstanding of course. :AMR:

On the state of the unbeliever the full counsel of Holy Writ seems quite perspicuous, Robert. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

It is only when God the Holy Spirit regeneratively replaces their lost hearts of stone with one of flesh (Eze. 36:26) that the lost are given the moral ability to believe and then irrevocably evidence the first fruits of their regeneration—faith and repentance.

We should be in awe that God saves anyone, for all are born fallen in Adam and deserve no mercy from God. The miracle is that God mercifully saves even one person, and not the great many that cannot be numbered. Would that all give God all the glory (one-hundred percent) for their salvation rather than clinging on to some humanistic notion of their own wisdom, their supposed openness to being "wooed" by the Holy Spirit, choosing rightly while their neighbor chooses wrongly, etc.

AMR

So, you want to believe that God sends his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world and then blinds and deafens some so that they can't hear and believe the Gospel and be saved.

That is some God you got there. I want no part of your tricky God.

The Bible teaches that it is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ. The Holy Spirit is present in the Gospel. Some hear and believe, some don't. Hebrews 4:2.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

So we agree that God ordained man to have free will. Adam possessed the ability to sin or not to sin. Do you think after Adam fell in the garden that man still possesses this same ability? If so, why?

AMR

God created Adam, the first man. The Bible says: "Romans 5:12--"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Adam had the free-will to choose to sin, and he did. Adam was the "Prototype" of a human being. After the fall, he and Eve were removed from the garden. Man was hence forth, to till the land and Eve was to have pain in child birth. Where does it say in Scripture, that man lost his free-will? What else did Adam lose, if anything? Adam and Eve lived and died after the fall. We live and die today. They both had bodies like ours after the fall. Cain chose to kill Abel. That episode certainly showed the continuation of mans ability to sin. Adam chose to sin and Cain chose to sin. History shows, that men have chosen to continue to sin. If Adam had the free-will to choose sin in the garden and every other human since, have had the free-will to do as they please (make choices) then, what makes you think "mankind" lost their "free-will" after being ousted from the garden? Is there Scripture to back that idea up? I mean Scripture that can't be made to sound like your assertion? In other words, it mustn't be vague. Remember, you must use Scripture that is clear and concise? After all, this is a rather, "meaty" discussion. (Debate)

 

[musterion]

Someday I'm going to withdraw a thousand dollars from the bank. Then I'm going to find a person who is stone deaf and stand behind them, out of sight. I'll say to the deaf person, "I've got a thousand dollars here. It's yours free if you simply accept it." If they don't accept it, then to Hell with them for not believing me. Or I might take that thousand dollars, find a completely blind person and stand in front of them with a big sign that says "I've got $1,000 for you. Simply accept it and it's yours." If they don't accept it, then to Hell with them too.

 

[beloved57]

So, you want to believe that God sends his only begotten Son into the world to atone for the sins of the world and then blinds and deafens some so that they can't hear and believe the Gospel and be saved.

That is some God you got there. I want no part of your tricky God.

The Bible teaches that it is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ. The Holy Spirit is present in the Gospel. Some hear and believe, some don't. Hebrews 4:2.

You believe that man is saved by works, even though the scripture does not teach that.

 

[Robert Pate]

You believe that man is saved by works, even though the scripture does not teach that.

Yea, Christ work.

Jesus saves to the uttermost.

"He is able to save them to the uttermost, that come unto God by him" Hebrews 7:25.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

B57 has rejected the Grace Gospel. He's an enemy of God's Grace message. He fights it tooth and nail. There's still time for him to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. As long as he has blood in his veins and breathe in his lungs.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

In other words you were more discerning, wiser, etc., that someone who chose wrongly. How do you account for that?

Providentially this morning's Spurgeon devotional crossed my desk:

Spoiler

"Salvation is of the Lord." Jonah 2:9

Salvation is the work of God. It is he alone who quickens the soul "dead in trespasses and sins," and it is he also who maintains the soul in its spiritual life. He is both "Alpha and Omega." "Salvation is of the Lord." If I am prayerful, God makes me prayerful; if I have graces, they are God's gifts to me; if I hold on in a consistent life, it is because he upholds me with his hand. I do nothing whatever towards my own preservation, except what God himself first does in me. Whatever I have, all my goodness is of the Lord alone. Wherein I sin, that is my own; but wherein I act rightly, that is of God, wholly and completely. If I have repulsed a spiritual enemy, the Lord's strength nerved my arm. Do I live before men a consecrated life? It is not I, but Christ who liveth in me. Am I sanctified? I did not cleanse myself: God's Holy Spirit sanctifies me. Am I weaned from the world? I am weaned by God's chastisements sanctified to my good. Do I grow in knowledge? The great Instructor teaches me. All my jewels were fashioned by heavenly art. I find in God all that I want; but I find in myself nothing but sin and misery. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Do I feed on the Word? That Word would be no food for me unless the Lord made it food for my soul, and helped me to feed upon it. Do I live on the manna which comes down from heaven? What is that manna but Jesus Christ himself incarnate, whose body and whose blood I eat and drink? Am I continually receiving fresh increase of strength? Where do I gather my might? My help cometh from heaven's hills: without Jesus I can do nothing. As a branch cannot bring forth fruit except it abide in the vine, no more can I, except I abide in him. What Jonah learned in the great deep, let me learn this morning in my closet: "Salvation is of the Lord."

Is salvation wholly of the Lord? You seem to be saying it is not as you were somehow more discerning than those that chose wrongly.

AMR

Spurgeon was a mere human being. He had a right to his own opinion. So do you and I. There is no mention of faith in his writing? However, I do agree that God is the provider of our salvation. I believe the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ. However, there is a human element involved and that is, we must hear the Gospel and place our faith in Christ as our personal Savior. Remember,"Faith pleases God." Romans 4:3--"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

 

[Nihilo]

Providentially

Speaking of which, it might be helpful to communicate your position by contrasting it with what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches us about Divine Providence. (The whole page I'm linking to is full of great things IMO, but I'm particularly curious about the differences between your position and the Texts on the page starting at Text 302 and following.)

It's a little bit of a read, and if it's too much material to cover all at once, I can try to cull it down to what may be the most significant differences according to me, but then I'd be introducing bias unwittingly I'm sure, and I'd prefer to avoid that.

To sum it up in a sentence:

Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.​

Isn't this the crux of the matter? I believe the above, and I think that you'll find in it the one solution to the problem that everybody else has with the conflict between our Maker's complete sovereignty over His creation, and our freedom. It is literally solved right in that sentence. The rest of the page is frosting on the cake.

 

[Nanja]

Yea, Christ work.

Right, not your work:

Not your believing
Not your receiving
Not your faith


Scripture says that unless one is Born Again, their own works of righteousness are as filthy rags Is. 64:6,
because the carnal man is hostile [echthra] to God, in opposition; hatred toward Him.


Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh [unregenerate] cannot please God.


But those to whom the Spirit gives New Birth, they are given the Fruit of Faith Gal. 5:22.

Heb. 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


The kind of faith / belief that pleases God is a Work of the Holy Spirit given in in New Birth to those who were Chosen to Salvation.


2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

~~~~~

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Just to remind everyone, Nanja is an Ultra, hyper-Calvinist fanatic. Her Mentor and good friend is B57.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Of course he had free will. Did he not sin against his creator?

He had 2 options from which to choose....he had no freewill to make an alternative option.

He could obey and live
He could disobey and die

If he had freewill he would have chosen to disobey and live, but this option was not given to him.

The only one who has freewill is the one who gives the options.

Adam chose to disobey and die, he died, dead men do not have freewill

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Spurgeon was a mere human being. He had a right to his own opinion. So do you and I. There is no mention of faith in his writing? However, I do agree that God is the provider of our salvation. I believe the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ. However, there is a human element involved and that is, we must hear the Gospel and place our faith in Christ as our personal Savior. Remember,"Faith pleases God." Romans 4:3--"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

In the helpless, lost state man finds himself in—a sinner with no desire for God—only God's grace will save him. How can one hear who is enslaved to sin, incapable of understanding, loves darkness, and dead in trespasses and sins? How do you reconcile these plain statements of Scripture about the moral state of the lost with your view that you must choose to have faith in the Good News? If you chose rightly and another did not, then what accounts for your enlightened view? Did God draw you more than another? If so, how does God escape the usual anti-Calvinist charge of being unfair?

The unbeliever...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Where in these plain descriptions of the deplorable state of the unbeliever is this human element of choosing wisely you lay claim to?

Is there some remnant of grace remaining in fallen man which brings him only to the brink of salvation but must finally be completed by an act of the unregenerated (though "enlightened") human will? How enlightened by this seed of grace is the will anyway, since it may also finally decide that the gospel isn't true, after all? If all receive the same amount of this element of grace, then why is it effective only in some, and not all? Would not all receive the same portion (you know, God being "fair" and all of that)? Then since all receive the same portion of this element of grace implies that there is something within people that would be the determining factor in whether or not they respond positively to the influence of this grace and say yes to the gospel. Would not this act of believing then, become something about which such people could boast? (Eph 2: 8-9, 1 Cor 28-29 ).

AMR

 

[beloved57]

Yea, Christ work.

Jesus saves to the uttermost.

"He is able to save them to the uttermost, that come unto God by him" Hebrews 7:25.

You don't believe that verse or understand it, you teach that people Christ died for are going to hell in their sins in unbelief , making his death of no effect!