Jesus Christ is God's Predestinated, Elected Man

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Is God privy to who will and who will not place their faith in His Son? Yes. However, He doesn't ordain the salvation of anyone. He created man with a free-will. Does God want everyone to choose His Son as their Savior? Yes. Will all men make that choice? No. God will not interfere with mans free-will choice when it comes to salvation and eternal life.

How is it we have free will? Did not God ordain it to be so? If something exists, free will, is not God the maker of that which exists? We Calvinists would readily state that the decree of God (His ordaining) establishes the very liberty of spontaneity of the will. Just as God spoke, "let there be light" is it not also likely He would declare "let there be free will"?

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Did God "force" the House of Israel to not choose to follow after their idols at times?

How do you define "force" here? Is it causing something that was never an inclination in the one so "forced"? Or is it God intersecting with the inclinations of another and refusing to restrain their inclinations, as in giving them over to their hardened hearts?

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Nope, which is why I'm not. I think everything that can be said between the two of us has been said. Sometimes you just get to a point in a conversation when all you are doing is going over and over well traveled ground.


I'm not sure I'd go so far as to employ that metaphor. Pate doesn't reject Jesus. He has some very scary theological conclusions and I'm more than a little concerned about his willingness to change bible verses if they don't read like he wants them to read but I consider Pate a person believes the core of the gospel (1 Cor 15 stuff).


I don't think that responding to posts that make false claims about Calvinism can reasonably be considered attacking Pate. If I were to start a thread critiquing MAD I can pretty well count on MAD folks responding, can't I?


Nope.

You, Pate and others have a stick in your craw about Calvinism. You regularly show up to voice your opinion. Does that mean you find Calvinists dangerous to your belief system?

:think:

Nope.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

How do you define "force" here? Is it causing something that was never an inclination in the one so "forced"? Or is it God intersecting with the inclinations of another and refusing to restrain their inclinations, as in giving them over to their hardened hearts?

AMR

God didn't intervene in their particular choice. God doesn't force us to hear the Gospel then, make us place our faith in Christ. We have the free-will to accept or reject the Gospel.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

How is it we have free will? Did not God ordain it to be so? If something exists, free will, is not God the maker of that which exists? We Calvinists would readily state that the decree of God (His ordaining) establishes the very liberty of spontaneity of the will. Just as God spoke, "let there be light" is it not also likely He would declare "let there be free will"?

AMR

I would phrase it this way: God created mankind with a free-will. To draw an analogy, If I purchase a car and that car comes with an air conditioner, that's the way the manufacturer created it. God created us with a fully installed free-will choice. It's just the way He wanted to make us. He put all the physical parts together in order to have the body work properly. He also created the Spiritual parts of us. Including the soul. We have our, physical parts and our Spiritual parts. The difference being, we can't see, hear, smell, or touch our Spiritual parts.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Thanks for this response, GM.




If we can come back to the question, when you heard the Good News, how was it that you chose rightly? Could you have chosen wrongly? If so, why did you not choose otherwise?

AMR

In 1962 on a very hot day in Anaheim, California I was twelve years old. It was so hot that I came up to my Mother and asked her an interesting question. I asked her, "Are we were going to Hell? Mind you, we weren't a church going family. I knew barely anything about God, religion, Heaven, Hell, sin, etc. My question was initiated by the heat in Southern California. Anyway, my Mother answered: "Probably." Being twelve years old, I let it go at that.

About two weeks later, we moved into an apartment complex in Garden Grove California. My Sister met a neighbor girl whose Father was an Assistant Pastor of a Non-Denominational Bible Church. Our families got together through my Sisters friendship with the neighbors daughter. They shared the Gospel with my family and my Mother, Father, Sister, and myself placed our faith in Christ as our Savior and began to worship at their church. I believe that the Holy Spirit was drawing me to Christ through my question. I asked: "Are we we going to Hell?" Two weeks later, God answered that question, through that families Testimony. God lead us to those neighbors. They in turn, had the answer to my question, "Are we going to Hell?" The answer came back, "No." Both my Parents are gone and so is that entire family. They're all with the Lord. My Sister and myself are the only ones left now. I believe God the Holy Spirit draws all of us to Christ. God doesn't want anyone to perish. I believe, through the coarse of everyone's life the Holy Spirit draws everyone. Some will believe by hearing the Gospel and placing their faith in Christ and some will reject the Gospel. Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind. However, only those who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior, will reap the benefits. The "option" is open for ALL to come in. Those who reject the Gospel/Christ will be judged by their works and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

To answer your question, I heard the Gospel and I believed it and placed my faith in Christ as my Savior. Could I have rejected that same Gospel? Yes. It's a matter of free-will choice.

 

[Totton Linnet]

So, you believe that sinners (The devils crowd) cannot be saved? If you say, "yes" then, none of us can be saved? We start out as lost sinners then, we hear the Gospel and place our faith in Christ as our Savior.

We are all consigned under sin, and by the way people speak about sin and choosing to sin as though it is something man will do, but the horrible fact is that it is something that man has already chosen...man's sin is in the past, he is ALREADY DOOMED.

Nobuddy deserves anything from God.

But God out of His own mercy and grace has determined to save some....if you are in that "some" the only thing you ought to feel is profound gratitude...not be whining about supposed injustice of God in the manner in which He has PREdetermined to save WHO?

The weak, the poor, the foolish, those who are nothing in this world.

God did not predestine man's sin, He DID predestine man's salvation.

But predestiny and election is not unto salvation but unto sonship and conformity to Christ, of course we must first be saved to be conformed. But our predestiny and election to conformity to Christ does not exclude others from being saved.

You were PREDESTINED to be conformed to God's Son...why doesn't that please you? it pleases me right well.

 

[Totton Linnet]

In 1962 on a very hot day in Anaheim, California I was twelve years old. It was so hot that I came up to my Mother and asked her an interesting question. I asked her, "Are we were going to Hell? Mind you, we weren't a church going family. I knew barely anything about God, religion, Heaven, Hell, sin, etc. My question was initiated by the heat in Southern California. Anyway, my Mother answered: "Probably." Being twelve years old, I let it go at that.

About two weeks later, we moved into an apartment complex in Garden Grove California. My Sister met a neighbor girl whose Father was an Assistant Pastor of a Non-Denominational Bible Church. Our families got together through my Sisters friendship with the neighbors daughter. They shared the Gospel with my family and my Mother, Father, Sister, and myself placed our faith in Christ as our Savior and began to worship at their church. I believe that the Holy Spirit was drawing me to Christ through my question. I asked: "Are we we going to Hell?" Two weeks later, God answered that question, through that families Testimony. God lead us to those neighbors. They in turn, had the answer to my question, "Are we going to Hell?" The answer came back, "No." Both my Parents are gone and so is that entire family. They're all with the Lord. My Sister and myself are the only ones left now. I believe God the Holy Spirit draws all of us to Christ. God doesn't want anyone to perish. I believe, through the coarse of everyone's life the Holy Spirit draws everyone. Some will believe by hearing the Gospel and placing their faith in Christ and some will reject the Gospel. Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind. However, only those who hear the Gospel and place their faith in Christ as their Savior, will reap the benefits. The "option" is open for ALL to come in. Those who reject the Gospel/Christ will be judged by their works and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

To answer your question, I heard the Gospel and I believed it and placed my faith in Christ as my Savior. Could I have rejected that same Gospel? Yes. It's a matter of free-will choice.

Yes it was God drawing you, God draws ALL men to Christ, some unto salvation [in your case] others unto judgement. YOU say you could have resisted, I say you couldn't.

It is ALL of God from start to finish "God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure"

You think it is your will but it is God working in you.

 

[Totton Linnet]

God never asked any man's permission to create him, any more than the potter asks the clay, God doesn't consult, He just goes ahead and we are created.

He doesn't ask anyone's permission to re-create either

Modern day gospel is a request, bible gospel is a command, a fiat. Modern day gospel is an appeal to man to acquiesce, bible gospel is an appeal to God to send the Holy Ghost from heaven to confirm the message spoken.

When God created the world He said simply "Light be" and there was light, in the gospel He comes to us and says "saved be" and we are saved.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Freewill is a myth, God made man and took him and placed him in the garden to dress it and keep it, then God forbade the man to partake the knowledge of good and evil....there is no freewill in the matter.

You say but man sinned this proves he had freewill.

NO

Man sinned and he died, dead men have no freewill...they must die.

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation becomes ours by faith alone and not by being predestinated. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. God does nothing outside of his Son Jesus Christ, Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6. All that God does he does corporately. "By the obedience of ONE shall many be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19. God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. He provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Now it is up to everyone to hear the Gospel and believe in Jesus.

We have all been reconciled to God by the doing and the dying of Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. This reconciliation is available to all who want to be saved. Paul said,"Be ye reconciled unto God" 2 Cor 5:20. What Paul meant by this, is receive what God has done for you in Jesus Christ. God extends his hand of forgivness, to not accept his offer of forgivness of sins that is offered through Jesus Christ is to be under his wrath.

There is no credibility to rest on Paul as the Scriptures are concerned. He had no knowledge of the Scriptures. Evidence of the fact is that he taught that we all have been reconciled to God by the dying of Jesus while the prophets of the Most High said that no one can die for the sins of another. So, as reconciliation was concerned, Jesus himself said we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)If what I am saying is not down in the letter, it is because there is no truth in the gospel of Paul.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Salvation becomes ours by faith alone and not by being predestinated. There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. God does nothing outside of his Son Jesus Christ, Jesus said, "No man comes to the Father but by me" John 14:6. All that God does he does corporately. "By the obedience of ONE shall many be MADE righteous" Romans 5:19. God is no respector of persons, Acts 10:34. He provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Now it is up to everyone to hear the Gospel and believe in Jesus.



There is no credibility to rest on Paul as the Scriptures are concerned. He had no knowledge of the Scriptures. Evidence of the fact is that he taught that we all have been reconciled to God by the dying of Jesus while the prophets of the Most High said that no one can die for the sins of another. So, as reconciliation was concerned, Jesus himself said we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)If what I am saying is not down in the letter, it is because there is no truth in the gospel of Paul.

*
The very first mention of Messiah refutes your claim, He is the seed of the woman who crushes the serpent's head but receives the serpent's bruise in His heel. That is He conquers the devil at the cost of His own life

 

[Ben Masada]

Freewill is a myth, God made man and took him and placed him in the garden to dress it and keep it, then God forbade the man to partake the knowledge of good and evil....there is no freewill in the matter. You say but man sinned this proves he had freewill. NO

Man sinned and he died, dead men have no freewill...they must die.

Freewill is absolutely no myth but reality. Even the decision to sin is an evidence of Freewill. And sin has nothing to do with death. One does not die because he sinned but because he was born or created. Babies die without having ever committed a single sin. To die is only the third step of being alive. These are the three steps in the life of man on earth: Birth, span of life and death.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We are in agreement, GM. Why do you think God knows what will happen?

AMR

Obviously, we must believe that God has that ability. I trust Him for that. The proof is in the Bible itself, pointing to Revelation again. Because, God has the ability to know the beginning to the end, doesn't mean that He has given Himself permission to control mankind's every step/every choice. It just means, He's aware of ALL that is and will be. He will not interfere with man's free-will, that He has put in place when He created man. Could God have created man without free-will? Of course. Did He? Not at all. Does God have sovereignty over all? Yes He does. From my standpoint, He created man with a free-will to choose what he (man) would place his faith in. I believe God wanted man to, choose to worship and place his faith in Him but, not to the point where He (God) chose, FOR man.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

God didn't intervene in their particular choice. God doesn't force us to hear the Gospel then, make us place our faith in Christ. We have the free-will to accept or reject the Gospel.

Can you explain how you come to this assessment of Calvinism? Please point me to where in the WCF that such a view is possible. You are erecting a straw man here, not an actual argument.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I would phrase it this way: God created mankind with a free-will. To draw an analogy, If I purchase a car and that car comes with an air conditioner, that's the way the manufacturer created it. God created us with a fully installed free-will choice. It's just the way He wanted to make us. He put all the physical parts together in order to have the body work properly. He also created the Spiritual parts of us. Including the soul. We have our, physical parts and our Spiritual parts. The difference being, we can't see, hear, smell, or touch our Spiritual parts.

So we agree that God ordained man to have free will. Adam possessed the ability to sin or not to sin. Do you think after Adam fell in the garden that man still possesses this same ability? If so, why?

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

To answer your question, I heard the Gospel and I believed it and placed my faith in Christ as my Savior. Could I have rejected that same Gospel? Yes. It's a matter of free-will choice.

In other words you were more discerning, wiser, etc., that someone who chose wrongly. How do you account for that?

Providentially this morning's Spurgeon devotional crossed my desk:

Spoiler

"Salvation is of the Lord." Jonah 2:9

Salvation is the work of God. It is he alone who quickens the soul "dead in trespasses and sins," and it is he also who maintains the soul in its spiritual life. He is both "Alpha and Omega." "Salvation is of the Lord." If I am prayerful, God makes me prayerful; if I have graces, they are God's gifts to me; if I hold on in a consistent life, it is because he upholds me with his hand. I do nothing whatever towards my own preservation, except what God himself first does in me. Whatever I have, all my goodness is of the Lord alone. Wherein I sin, that is my own; but wherein I act rightly, that is of God, wholly and completely. If I have repulsed a spiritual enemy, the Lord's strength nerved my arm. Do I live before men a consecrated life? It is not I, but Christ who liveth in me. Am I sanctified? I did not cleanse myself: God's Holy Spirit sanctifies me. Am I weaned from the world? I am weaned by God's chastisements sanctified to my good. Do I grow in knowledge? The great Instructor teaches me. All my jewels were fashioned by heavenly art. I find in God all that I want; but I find in myself nothing but sin and misery. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Do I feed on the Word? That Word would be no food for me unless the Lord made it food for my soul, and helped me to feed upon it. Do I live on the manna which comes down from heaven? What is that manna but Jesus Christ himself incarnate, whose body and whose blood I eat and drink? Am I continually receiving fresh increase of strength? Where do I gather my might? My help cometh from heaven's hills: without Jesus I can do nothing. As a branch cannot bring forth fruit except it abide in the vine, no more can I, except I abide in him. What Jonah learned in the great deep, let me learn this morning in my closet: "Salvation is of the Lord."

Is salvation wholly of the Lord? You seem to be saying it is not as you were somehow more discerning than those that chose wrongly.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Obviously, we must believe that God has that ability. I trust Him for that. The proof is in the Bible itself, pointing to Revelation again. Because, God has the ability to know the beginning to the end, doesn't mean that He has given Himself permission to control mankind's every step/every choice. It just means, He's aware of ALL that is and will be. He will not interfere with man's free-will, that He has put in place when He created man. Could God have created man without free-will? Of course. Did He? Not at all. Does God have sovereignty over all? Yes He does. From my standpoint, He created man with a free-will to choose what he (man) would place his faith in. I believe God wanted man to, choose to worship and place his faith in Him but, not to the point where He (God) chose, FOR man.

If God does not, as you say, interfere with our free will, how is He achieving all that He has ordained? Do you think the future God knows is not actual knowledge? Does the future play out according to God's will? You seem to be implying God is impotent about the future since, after all, He does not interfere with the choices made by man that actually determine the future. This would mean that God must sit back and be waiting around to see how man chooses and then react to these choices. Yet, how does God react in these cases in a way that does not interfere with man's free will. In other words, there is something greater than God at work here, which would then mean God is not really God as He is necessarily greater than all that can be conceived. Would it not be more harmonious with Scripture to hold that God actually intersects with the free will of man, placing before man situations, events, temporal contingencies, etc., such that man chooses according to his own inclinations?

AMR

 

[Nick M]

When it comes to the doctrine of reconciliation all of the Calvinist appear to go home.

If God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:19, then there is no place for predestination. Why would God need to predestinate anyone to heaven or to hell if he has ALREADY reconciled the whole world unto himself by Jesus Christ?

I have yet to hear from a Calvinist with an answer to that question.

The Lord Jesus Christ was foreordained to be blameless, not us. It was determined beforehand that us in him would be blameless because of him.

1 Peter 1

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

 

[Robert Pate]

So we agree that God ordained man to have free will. Adam possessed the ability to sin or not to sin. Do you think after Adam fell in the garden that man still possesses this same ability? If so, why?

AMR

No where in the Bible does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall.

What he lost was his relationship with God.