Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[JudgeRightly]

I'm not missing your point.

:dunce:

You are refusing the point that you cannot have a group if you don't have individuals. Therefore,

This is circular reasoning. had you left out the "therefore", your following statement would have been just fine, and is, without it.

the predestination is for specific individuals as well.

Never said it wasn't, and if you had paid attention to what I wrote, I even agreed that God chose individuals as well.

But that wasn't my argument.

You cannot get to groups any other way.

That wasn't my argument at all.

Which tells me you completely missed the point, as I suspected.

Go read Post #146 again. Actually, start with Post #140, and read from there.

Once you're done, then I would like you to try once again to state, in your own words, what my argument is.

 

[oatmeal]

He was with God

John 1:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

So you say

Was he with God or was he God?

1 Peter 1:20

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The Greek word for foreordain is the word proginosko which is the same word translated foreknow..

in

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Not only were we foreknown but Jesus was foreknown as well.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Foreknowledge is a very simple concept.

Have you ever received foreknowledge from God?

I have, as has every one, Christian and non Christian who has read a passage of scripture telling us of future events such as I Thessalonians 5:13-17 which tell us of the future event of our gathering together unto him. The book of Revelation is almost entirely about future events. What do you do with that advanced knowledge of future events? Do you ignore that or plan accordingly?

My existence did not determine whether that event is going to happen or not. However, I know I will be a part of it, therefore, if I choose to live wisely, I will conduct my life so as to make the best of this knowledge.

Fate has nothing to do with foreknowledge.

Is it fate that you see a stop sign at the intersection ahead of you though it might be several hundreds ahead of you? Are you surprised that as you drive closer, the sign gets closer? Knowing well ahead of time that you will soon be at that intersection do you plan ahead accordingly or do you ignore what is ahead?

God having the ability to see far down the road, likewise planned ahead.

God inhabits all eternity, so from his actual perspective He does not have foreknowledge, all time is in his view right now.

Do you believe the weatherman? Why? Because he has a larger perspective of the weather patterns that are reasonable to expect that will come your way.

You seem to forget that God created the heaven and the earth and that He is the one that made, formed and created Adam and Eve and that he expected them to have progeny and that that progeny would have progeny....

God designed the heaven and the earth and the contents of the earth so that would be a natural progression.

You are the results of your parents decision to have a child, it was not God's decision. He may have helped along the way, but it was your parent's decision.

That is not fate.

:blabla:

Not one bit of that actually addressed anything I said.

Care to try again?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, indeed.

The trinitarian doctrine cannot distinguish between the Lord God and His son

Goodness, the number of fallacies in this single statement is astounding...

I see straw man, equivocation, conflating terms, and association fallacies.

First of all, "The Lord God" applies to all three persons of the Trinity. This is where you're equivocating.

Second, since judging by the rest of your post, you seem to be talking about the Father when you say "the Lord God" and "His", (which is conflating terms, by the way, and is partial question begging, as you're assuming that which you must prove), this is where the straw man comes in, as yes, in fact, trinitarians do indeed distinguish between the Father and the Son.

Third, and here is where you make an association fallacy:

Premise: A = B
Premise: A = C
Conclusion: B = C

Wasn't it you I already showed this to?

The problem is that, while yes, we assert that The Father is "the Lord God, and that The Son is the Lord God, you therefore assume that we are saying that the Father is the Son, but we are not, as we assert that the Father is NOT the Son. In essence, you are committing a fallacy of omission, "stacking the deck" as it were, against our position.

the Lord Jesus Christ

Considering that Jesus' title, you would do well to capitalize it.

Didn't you ever attend grammar school?

Acts 2:34

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Funny how the exact same word is used both times for "Lord"...

:think:

But scripture makes a clear and unmistakable distinctions between the two.

Uh... Duh. That's our position...

:dunce:

The Father is not the son and the son is not the Father.

Not one trinitarian claims such. Which makes this a straw man.

The Father is the literal father of the son.

Again, duh. We teach that as well.

:dunce:

 

[Dartman]

So, 136 posts later, and no one has been able to explain away the proof that Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah.

There have been TONS of attempts to contradict/counter the Scriptures posted. ..... but not an ounce of proof.

Jehovah is God's personal name, and the thousands of times His name "Jehovah/YHVH" is used in the OT clearly establishes Him as "the ONLY true God", exactly as his "holy servant" Jesus stated.

 

[clefty]

So, 136 posts later, and no one has been able to explain away the proof that Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah.

There have been TONS of attempts to contradict/counter the Scriptures posted. ..... but not an ounce of proof.

Jehovah is God's personal name, and the thousands of times His name "Jehovah/YHVH" is used in the OT clearly establishes Him as "the ONLY true God", exactly as his "holy servant" Jesus stated.

Nor can they resolve the East vs West thingy...

Again the East believes the Spirit is of the Father and the West that it is of the Father and Son...

Odd that the Son is of the Holy Spirit and but the Son calls yet a third Father...

 

[way 2 go]

So, 136 posts later, and no one has been able to explain away the proof that Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah.

There have been TONS of attempts to contradict/counter the Scriptures posted. ..... but not an ounce of proof.

Jehovah is God's personal name, and the thousands of times His name "Jehovah/YHVH" is used in the OT clearly establishes Him as "the ONLY true God", exactly as his "holy servant" Jesus stated.

not one "thus saith the Lord" in the gospels ,
my point is Jesus spoke as God

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
my point is only God is lord of the sabbath and Jesus claims to be Lord of the sabbath
therefore Jesus is God


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
my point is the commandments are God's commandments which Jesus claims are his commandments
therefore Jesus is God

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JudgeRightly,

The trinitarian doctrine cannot distinguish between the Lord God and His son the lord Jesus Christ
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,.

Funny how the exact same word is used both times for "Lord"...

But you failed to mention that the Hebrew of Psalm 110:1 uses two different words, LORD, “Yahweh”, and this is God the Father’s Name, while David’s Lord has the Hebrew word “Adon” and this is not a name but a title, and could be translated Lord, Ruler, Master. I have yet to see a clear, simple Trinitarian explanation of Psalm 110:1 and the various quotations and expositions of this verse in the NT, including this application in Acts 2:34-36.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dartman]

not one "thus saith the Lord" in the gospels ,
my point is Jesus spoke as God

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
my point is only God is lord of the sabbath and Jesus claims to be Lord of the sabbath
therefore Jesus is God


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
my point is the commandments are God's commandments which Jesus claims are his commandments
therefore Jesus is God

You are incorrect;
John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.



John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.




So, Jesus CANNOT be God.

 

[oatmeal]

:blabla:

Not one bit of that actually addressed anything I said.

Care to try again?

Well, actually I did , but you did not see it.

However, since you missed the mark rather badly, I would recommend that you read carefully read what I wrote so you can learn scripture more accurately, once you do, then you will be ready for more.

 

[oatmeal]

Greetings JudgeRightly,
But you failed to mention that the Hebrew of Psalm 110:1 uses two different words, LORD, “Yahweh”, and this is God the Father’s Name, while David’s Lord has the Hebrew word “Adon” and this is not a name but a title, and could be translated Lord, Ruler, Master. I have yet to see a clear, simple Trinitarian explanation of Psalm 110:1 and the various quotations and expositions of this verse in the NT, including this application in Acts 2:34-36.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor, thank you for that additional info

 

[oatmeal]

Goodness, the number of fallacies in this single statement is astounding...

I see straw man, equivocation, conflating terms, and association fallacies.

First of all, "The Lord God" applies to all three persons of the Trinity. This is where you're equivocating.

Second, since judging by the rest of your post, you seem to be talking about the Father when you say "the Lord God" and "His", (which is conflating terms, by the way, and is partial question begging, as you're assuming that which you must prove), this is where the straw man comes in, as yes, in fact, trinitarians do indeed distinguish between the Father and the Son.

Third, and here is where you make an association fallacy:

Premise: A = B
Premise: A = C
Conclusion: B = C

Wasn't it you I already showed this to?

The problem is that, while yes, we assert that The Father is "the Lord God, and that The Son is the Lord God, you therefore assume that we are saying that the Father is the Son, but we are not, as we assert that the Father is NOT the Son. In essence, you are committing a fallacy of omission, "stacking the deck" as it were, against our position.



Considering that Jesus' title, you would do well to capitalize it.

Didn't you ever attend grammar school?



Funny how the exact same word is used both times for "Lord"...

:think:



Uh... Duh. That's our position...

:dunce:



Not one trinitarian claims such. Which makes this a straw man.



Again, duh. We teach that as well.

:dunce:

You have started with a false premise, for you assume that you are right about a scriptural basis for a trinity.

You would have to prove your premise to be correct before I could accept more.

Since God's word does not teach a trinity but that Jesus is the son of God, not God the Son, you have your work cut out for you.

Do you really think you can change God's mind about His uniqueness as God?

You do not distinguish between the Lord God and His son, to you both of them and the supposed third person the Holy Spirit are one, and identical, if they are identical, then there is no difference.

Then Father is the son is the Holy Spirit,

That is at best, illogical and inconsistent with the idea that language allows us to communicate reasoned messages to each other including God to man.

Jesus Christ is not identical to God, there are differences between God and the son of God, therefore the two are not identical

 

[Aimiel]

Greetings Aimiel, Could you explain why ...

Dude, all I can say is: one day you will KNOW that Jesus IS He (God). :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

Isa 11:1-3 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

All I'm saying is that Jesus cannot be called: "The root and offspring," of David, without being eternal. :duh:

 

[Dartman]

All I'm saying is that Jesus cannot be called: "The root and offspring," of David, without being eternal. :duh:

You don't seem to be actually reading the verse....
Isa 11:1-3 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Jesus is a root, that grew out of David's lineage..... Jesus is David's offspring.

Isa 53:1-2 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

 

[Aimiel]

Sorry, I will stick with the "Jesus" that is actually PREACHED to every crowd in the Bible. There simply is NEVER a trinitarian/oneness "Jesus" preached to ANY group of people in the Scriptures .... never.

I believe that you have yet to give ANY proof that Jesus is NOT God, in The Flesh. There's plenty of clues that He is but I have yet to see a single one that proves He is NOT. If you do, that's fine... I don't.

 

[Aimiel]

You don't seem to be actually reading the verse....
Isa 11:1-3 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Jesus is a root, that grew out of David's lineage..... Jesus is David's offspring.

Isa 53:1-2 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

I see the 'root' being eternal Christ, Himself, Who created Adam from dust. :duh:

 

[clefty]

not one "thus saith the Lord" in the gospels ,
my point is Jesus spoke as God

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
my point is only God is lord of the sabbath and Jesus claims to be Lord of the sabbath
therefore Jesus is God

they had Him done away with and then His Law for us...bore false witness that He changed the Law abolishing it

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

keep all or just most?

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
my point is the commandments are God's commandments which Jesus claims are his commandments
therefore Jesus is God

He is indeed...but His followers have either changed His Law and worship Him falsely
or they worship another god...a god with laws they can change or ignore

 

[genuineoriginal]

I believe that you have yet to give ANY proof that Jesus is NOT God, in The Flesh.

You refuse to accept the proof.

1 John 4:9 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.​

 

[Dartman]

I believe that you have yet to give ANY proof that Jesus is NOT God, in The Flesh. There's plenty of clues that He is but I have yet to see a single one that proves He is NOT. If you do, that's fine... I don't.

There are many proofs, and I have already given many.
The problem here is, trinitarian/oneness believers are willing to accept what they believe are clues, rather than relying on clear, simple, direct statements of Scripture. As a result, they are willing to reword the Scriptures, inserting words and phases and Capital letters, and altering pronouns, in an effort to twist the clear, simple, direct statements of Scripture to fit their interpretation of "the clues".

The Scriptures destroy the tenets unique to trinitarian/oneness doctrines.... but those Scriptures are twisted .... which God allows to happen, in order to prove who will HEAR HIM, and who will wrest His spirit to fit their spirit.

Here is a TINY sample of the clear, simple and direct statements that destroy the "clues";

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.
John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them me; and they have kept Thy word.

John 17:17-18 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth. 18 As Thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

John 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"


John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


1 Cor 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


1 Tim 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1 Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

John 14:28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.