Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[oatmeal]

:think:

So then we have always existed (even if only in God's mind)?

Because that's where that argument leads.

I think you need to reread that passage, because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Here it is for you:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians1:3-6&version=NKJV

He chose us before the foundation of the world. If we believe that God is all knowing than that would mean he always knew we would exist someday.

Since He foreknew that we would believe, He chose us to be holy and without blame before him in love.

The Greek word translated "predestinate" means to mark out beforehand. God foreseeing that we would believe marked us out before we ever existed Thus he could assign "ministering angels" to us or as they are more commonly called, guardian angels, to protect us from being killed until we believed

As Romans 4:17 makes clear" (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

God speaks of things as existing even before the are.

 

[oatmeal]

To believe in the Trinity doctrine automatically puts your beliefs outside of what the Bible says and leaves you reliant on human speculations which cannot be supported by the word of God. In short...other people's opinions.

Sound words

 

[clefty]

He chose us before the foundation of the world. If we believe that God is all knowing than that would mean he always knew we would exist someday.

Since He foreknew that we would believe, He chose us to be holy and without blame before him in love.

The Greek word translated "predestinate" means to mark out beforehand. God foreseeing that we would believe marked us out before we ever existed

As Romans 4:17 makes clear" (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

God speaks of things as existing even before the are.

But in this case the ONLY IMMORTAL “I AM” became a Father when He begot a Son Who existed spiritually LOOONG before He was reborn as flesh named Yahushua having come in His Father’s name which is Yah...so that we who are born of the flesh, created, formed of the dust can be reborn spiritually...and be eternal like our brother His Son...but NOT immortal like OUR Father Who art in Heaven...His will be done...Not even the Son’s will...but His Father’s

 

[Right Divider]

I know you won't read this because Charles C. Ryrie is a well respected Trinitarian scholar.

Professor Charles C. Ryrie, writing in his well known work, Basic Theology, says: "The N. T. contains no explicit statement of the doctrine of the Trinity of God (since “these three are one” in 1 John 5:7 is apparently not a part of the genuine text of scripture (p. 60). A definition of the Trinity is not easy to construct. Some are done by stating several propositions. Others err on the side of oneness or threeness (p. 61). Even with all the discussion and delineation that we attempt in relation to the Trinity, we must admit that in the final analysis it is a mystery (p.61). In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity (p.65). But many doctrines are accepted by evangelicals as being clearly taught in the Scripture for which there are no proof texts. The doctrine of the Trinity furnishes the best example of this. It is fair to say that the Bible does not clearly teach the doctrine of the Trinity. In fact, there is not even one proof text, if by proof text we mean a verse or passage that “clearly” states that there is one God who exists in three persons (p. 89).

​

Ryrie is a confused Acts 2 "dispie".

The Bible is plenty clear to any believer. It's unbelievers that cannot see.

 

[clefty]

Ryrie is a confused Acts 2 "dispie”.

Saturn eats his own...

The Bible is plenty clear to any believer. It's unbelievers that cannot see.

LOL...Is EXACTLY what the Pharisees and the Inquisition said...censoring all dissent...and now yours rebuild a temple to restore that church militant power...

 

[JudgeRightly]

He chose us

Exactly. He chose US.

Who is "us"?

Believers. A group of people, members of a whole.

Just like an airline scheduler chooses a plane to go from point A to point B. The scheduler doesn't know who will be on that plane, just that the plane will be going from A to B.

God decided, predetermined, that those who believe (the group as a whole, not individual members of that group) would not perish, but have everlasting life.

before the foundation of the world. If we believe that God is all knowing

An extrabiblical belief that originated with Plato.

God knows everything that can be known, and only knows that which He wants to know. He is not forced to know something that He does not want to know.

than that would mean he always knew we would exist someday.

Again, this comes from the concept of "Fate", which is part of Greek mythology, not the Bible.

Since He foreknew that we would believe,

Begging the question.

Here's the passage you're referring to.

Paul is speaking of a group here, not specific individuals.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. - Romans 8:28-30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:28-30&version=NKJV

Namely:

"those who love God"
"those who are the called according to His purpose"

The GROUP of members, not the individual members alone, would be conformed to the Son's image.

God simply planned to have a plane go from earth to heaven. He didn't decide who would be on it.

He chose us to be holy and without blame before him in love.

He chose a group, not specific individuals.

The Greek word translated "predestinate" means to mark out beforehand.

No argument here.

God foreseeing that we would believe marked us out before we ever existed

This is reading your interpretation into the Bible, instead of letting it speak for itself, and not only that, it's contradictory to what you said above.

Your entire position so far is self-contradictory for this reason:

If God knew about us, that means, at some basic level, we existed. Yet you also say that we wouldn't exist until later.

So which is it? Have we always existed in the back of God's mind for all of eternity past? Or, as I'll ask again below, was there ever a point in God's past where He did not know we would exist?

You said:

he always knew we would exist someday

He foreknew that we would believe

He chose us

If He is omniscient, and He knew that we would exist someday, then His omniscience is dependent on us existing, which makes his knowledge a self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak.

In other words, God depends on you to exist for Him to be omniscient.

Which places him lower than you.

Or rather, it exalts you over God.

That's called idolatry, and it's a sin.

You need to humble yourself and repent.

I'll ask you this again:

Was there ever a time when God did not know that we would exist?

As Romans 4:17 makes clear" (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

God speaks of things as existing even before the are.

I urge you to read it again more closely, and in context of the verses before and after it:

Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all(as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations” ) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” - Romans 4:16-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:16-18&version=NKJV

The verse is simply saying that God can declare believing sinners to be righteous even though they are not, by imputing His righteousness to them.

This is why you don't ignore the context of the verses you quote, because when you take them out of context, you can make them say anything you want them to.

 

[MennoSota]

Exactly. He chose US.

Who is "us"?

Believers. A group of people, members of a whole.

Just like an airline scheduler chooses a plane to go from point A to point B. The scheduler doesn't know who will be on that plane, just that the plane will be going from A to B.

God decided, predetermined, that those who believe (the group as a whole, not individual members of that group) would not perish, but have everlasting life.



An extrabiblical belief that originated with Plato.

God knows everything that can be known, and only knows that which He wants to know. He is not forced to know something that He does not want to know.



Again, this comes from the concept of "Fate", which is part of Greek mythology, not the Bible.



Begging the question.

Here's the passage you're referring to.

Paul is speaking of a group here, not specific individuals.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. - Romans 8:28-30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:28-30&version=NKJV

Namely:

"those who love God"
"those who are the called according to His purpose"

The GROUP of members, not the individual members alone, would be conformed to the Son's image.

God simply planned to have a plane go from earth to heaven. He didn't decide who would be on it.



He chose a group, not specific individuals.



No argument here.



This is reading your interpretation into the Bible, instead of letting it speak for itself, and not only that, it's contradictory to what you said above.

Your entire position so far is self-contradictory for this reason:

If God knew about us, that means, at some basic level, we existed. Yet you also say that we wouldn't exist until later.

So which is it? Have we always existed in the back of God's mind for all of eternity past? Or, as I'll ask again below, was there ever a point in God's past where He did not know we would exist?

You said:





If He is omniscient, and He knew that we would exist someday, then His omniscience is dependent on us existing, which makes his knowledge a self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak.

In other words, God depends on you to exist for Him to be omniscient.

Which places him lower than you.

Or rather, it exalts you over God.

That's called idolatry, and it's a sin.

You need to humble yourself and repent.

I'll ask you this again:

Was there ever a time when God did not know that we would exist?



I urge you to read it again more closely, and in context of the verses before and after it:

Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all(as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations” ) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” - Romans 4:16-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:16-18&version=NKJV

The verse is simply saying that God can declare believing sinners to be righteous even though they are not, by imputing His righteousness to them.

This is why you don't ignore the context of the verses you quote, because when you take them out of context, you can make them say anything you want them to.

The group is made up of individual people.
Ephesians 1 tells us this group of individuals were chosen for adoption from before the foundation of the world.
"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called;"
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."
"In love, he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."
No matter how much you deny it, God is absolutely Sovereign over all aspects of salvation. You do NOTHING to secure your salvation.





Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[JudgeRightly]

The group is made up of individual people.

My point is that it wasn't the individuals that God predestined, but the group as a whole.

Ephesians 1 tells us this group of individuals were chosen for adoption from before the foundation of the world.
"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called;"
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."
"In love, he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."
No matter how much you deny it, God is absolutely Sovereign over all aspects of salvation. You do NOTHING to secure your salvation.

Straw man.

Not my argument.

 

[Right Divider]

My point is that it wasn't the individuals that God predestined, but the group as a whole.

Straw man.

Not my argument.

The Calvinists just can't stop pushing their faulty definition of "sovereignty".

 

[clefty]

The Calvinists just can't stop pushing their faulty definition of "sovereignty".

I’ve heard it wasn’t a group but indeed individuals that were known with their hairs counted and long before the foundation of the world was laid and not only known but also chosen to be saved...oh and once saved ALWAYS SAVED...like nothing they did or didnt do mattered to that salvation...others too were chosen to be born and die and burn forever...but only after being trials and temptations for those previously chosen saved...grace or something

or something else...

 

[MennoSota]

My point is that it wasn't the individuals that God predestined, but the group as a whole.



Straw man.

Not my argument.

The individuals are the group. Therefore God indeed chooses individuals. To say God doesn't is simply put...stupid.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[JudgeRightly]

The individuals are the group.

Paul says the opposite:

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.For in fact the body is not one member but many.If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.And if they were all one member, where would the body be?But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. - 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians12:12-31&version=NKJV

I'll take Paul's word over yours. (And yes, I realize the primary purpose of this passage has little to do with our discussion, but it does shed important light on it.)

Therefore God indeed chooses individuals.

I never said He didn't.

I said that He didn't predestine individuals to the Body of Christ, but that He predestined the Body to eternal life.

To say God doesn't is simply put...stupid.

And this is an appeal to the stone, a logical fallacy, and also a straw man.

If you disagree with what I'm saying, show why I am wrong, don't just say that what I'm saying is stupid, because that doesn't mean anything to me.

 

[clefty]

Paul says the opposite:

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Yup

that is why it makes perfect sense that the claim Yahushua “changed the customs Moses delivered” was called FALSE WITNESS by Luke...Acts 6:13-14 It’s ONE Spirit given to WHOSOEVER obeys as Peter taught Acts 5:32

And again Peter taught Yah made NO DISTINCTION between jews and goyim Acts 15:9 Romans 10:12

I mean one would have to be MAD to think there were two fellowships doing different even opposing things...one called the Kingdom of God or something cooler...and the other calling themselves the Body of Christ gang...or something

For in fact the body is not one member but many.If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.And if they were all one member, where would the body be?But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles,

yup and zealous for the Law...living as the heretical sect known as the Way...walking in the unchanged Law...

second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. - 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians12:12-31&version=NKJV

I'll take Paul's word over yours. (And yes, I realize the primary purpose of this passage has little to do with our discussion, but it does shed important light on it.)

yes INDEED...IMITATE ME AS I IMITATE CHRIST...Paul says clearly...and each member has works...Eph 4:16 I mean you dont expect some to work and others just to layabout LAYodicean...I mean do you think the kingdom is divided? Two classes of people?

I never said He didn't.

I said that He didn't predestine individuals to the Body of Christ, but that He predestined the Body to eternal life.

good good...the individual under ONE LAW same law for native and goyim as it was when He was the head of the church in the wilderness...

And this is an appeal to the stone, a logical fallacy, and also a straw man.

If you disagree with what I'm saying, show why I am wrong, don't just say that what I'm saying is stupid, because that doesn't mean anything to me.

not all men of straw or illogical...some are scary scare crows...brainless perhaps...

But yes we are one body...His people doing just as He did... HIS WAY...

As did Paul...copy him

 

[MennoSota]

Paul says the opposite:

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.For in fact the body is not one member but many.If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body?If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.And if they were all one member, where would the body be?But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. - 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians12:12-31&version=NKJV

I'll take Paul's word over yours. (And yes, I realize the primary purpose of this passage has little to do with our discussion, but it does shed important light on it.)



I never said He didn't.

I said that He didn't predestine individuals to the Body of Christ, but that He predestined the Body to eternal life.



And this is an appeal to the stone, a logical fallacy, and also a straw man.

If you disagree with what I'm saying, show why I am wrong, don't just say that what I'm saying is stupid, because that doesn't mean anything to me.

The body is made up of individuals, just as Paul states. The very passage you quote proves me correct. Thank you.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

 

[genuineoriginal]

What that means is, to deny the Trinity doctrine automatically puts your beliefs outside of what the Bible says and leaves you reliant on human speculations which cannot be supported by the word of God. In short...other people's opinions.

To believe in the Trinity doctrine automatically puts your beliefs outside of what the Bible says and leaves you reliant on human speculations which cannot be supported by the word of God. In short...other people's opinions.

Okay that is messed up and yes outside of Christian belief.

You did notice that I merely rephrased someone else's remarks.

What I said is not messed up, despite the weight of "Christian belief" in the Trinity doctrine.
The Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in the Bible.
There will always be true believers in Christ that will refuse to accept the the Trinity doctrine because it appears to be a doctrine of men.
It all depends on whether you would rather hold the Bible or "Christianity" as the source of your beliefs.

 

[oatmeal]

Exactly. He chose US.

Who is "us"?

Believers. A group of people, members of a whole.

Just like an airline scheduler chooses a plane to go from point A to point B. The scheduler doesn't know who will be on that plane, just that the plane will be going from A to B.

God decided, predetermined, that those who believe (the group as a whole, not individual members of that group) would not perish, but have everlasting life.



An extrabiblical belief that originated with Plato.

God knows everything that can be known, and only knows that which He wants to know. He is not forced to know something that He does not want to know.



Again, this comes from the concept of "Fate", which is part of Greek mythology, not the Bible.



Begging the question.

Here's the passage you're referring to.

Paul is speaking of a group here, not specific individuals.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. - Romans 8:28-30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:28-30&version=NKJV

Namely:

"those who love God"
"those who are the called according to His purpose"

The GROUP of members, not the individual members alone, would be conformed to the Son's image.

God simply planned to have a plane go from earth to heaven. He didn't decide who would be on it.



He chose a group, not specific individuals.



No argument here.



This is reading your interpretation into the Bible, instead of letting it speak for itself, and not only that, it's contradictory to what you said above.

Your entire position so far is self-contradictory for this reason:

If God knew about us, that means, at some basic level, we existed. Yet you also say that we wouldn't exist until later.

So which is it? Have we always existed in the back of God's mind for all of eternity past? Or, as I'll ask again below, was there ever a point in God's past where He did not know we would exist?

You said:





If He is omniscient, and He knew that we would exist someday, then His omniscience is dependent on us existing, which makes his knowledge a self-fulfilling prophecy, so to speak.

In other words, God depends on you to exist for Him to be omniscient.

Which places him lower than you.

Or rather, it exalts you over God.

That's called idolatry, and it's a sin.

You need to humble yourself and repent.

I'll ask you this again:

Was there ever a time when God did not know that we would exist?



I urge you to read it again more closely, and in context of the verses before and after it:

Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all(as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations” ) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” - Romans 4:16-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:16-18&version=NKJV

The verse is simply saying that God can declare believing sinners to be righteous even though they are not, by imputing His righteousness to them.

This is why you don't ignore the context of the verses you quote, because when you take them out of context, you can make them say anything you want them to.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Foreknowledge is a very simple concept.

Have you ever received foreknowledge from God?

I have, as has every one, Christian and non Christian who has read a passage of scripture telling us of future events such as I Thessalonians 5:13-17 which tell us of the future event of our gathering together unto him. The book of Revelation is almost entirely about future events. What do you do with that advanced knowledge of future events? Do you ignore that or plan accordingly?

My existence did not determine whether that event is going to happen or not. However, I know I will be a part of it, therefore, if I choose to live wisely, I will conduct my life so as to make the best of this knowledge.

Fate has nothing to do with foreknowledge.

Is it fate that you see a stop sign at the intersection ahead of you though it might be several hundreds ahead of you? Are you surprised that as you drive closer, the sign gets closer? Knowing well ahead of time that you will soon be at that intersection do you plan ahead accordingly or do you ignore what is ahead?

God having the ability to see far down the road, likewise planned ahead.

God inhabits all eternity, so from his actual perspective He does not have foreknowledge, all time is in his view right now.

Do you believe the weatherman? Why? Because he has a larger perspective of the weather patterns that are reasonable to expect that will come your way.

You seem to forget that God created the heaven and the earth and that He is the one that made, formed and created Adam and Eve and that he expected them to have progeny and that that progeny would have progeny....

God designed the heaven and the earth and the contents of the earth so that would be a natural progression.

You are the results of your parents decision to have a child, it was not God's decision. He may have helped along the way, but it was your parent's decision.

That is not fate.

 

[Bright Raven]

The same place you and I were, Ephesians 1:4, in the foreknowledge of God.

He was with God

John 1:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Bright Raven,

He was with God John 1:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB) The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

The Word pre-existed, not Jesus. The Word is a personification of God’s character and wisdom, similar to the Wise Woman in Proverbs 8 who was with God in the Creation. Jesus is the Name of the child born to Mary. The Word proceeds out of the mouth of God the Father Psalm 33:4,6,9 Isaiah 55:8-9,10,11.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JudgeRightly]

The body is made up of individuals, just as Paul states. The very passage you quote proves me correct. Thank you.

I've heard of missing the point, but this is ridiculous.

MS, Could you state, in your own words, what I said in Post #146?

 

[MennoSota]

I've heard of missing the point, but this is ridiculous.

MS, Could you state, in your own words, what I said in Post #146?

I'm not missing your point. You are refusing the point that you cannot have a group if you don't have individuals. Therefore, the predestination is for specific individuals as well. You cannot get to groups any other way.