Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[God's Truth]

Yes, a name that includes his God's name .... like MANY other Hebrew names. That's his NAME, not his definition. As an illustration, let's look at what the LXX, translated about 250BC says;

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

That name is; Pele’Yow`eets’ElGibowr`Abiy`adSarShaalowm.
If this was true, you should find this being proclaimed all over the NT. But it is Not in any verse in the Bible.

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
As you probably know, Heb 1:8,9 are quoted from Psa 45, which is to all the Kings of Israel.

So, ALL the Kings of Israel are called "God".

Jesus is the King of Israel, since his God gave him the throne of his father David, so this passage applies to Jesus also.

So, the question then becomes, who are "thy fellows", and who is "thy God"?

Jesus isn't just some King of Israel like the other kings.

Jesus IS the King of all the kings.

Jesus is the ruler of kings of all the earth.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,


King of kings is what the Bible says about God the Father.

So how many Kings of kings do you have?

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

God is the King as stated in Timothy:

1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,


Now read this:
The Lamb, Jesus, is the King.

Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

How many King of kings do you have?
There is only one King of kings.
God the Father and Jesus Christ are one and the same.

 

[God's Truth]

No, it's good exegesis. It is of UTMOST importance.
Jesus, and the apostles, explained WHO Jesus is/was HUNDREDS of times ...... and NEVER ONCE did they explain even ONE tenet that is unique to either trinity or oneness. AND, you ignored the content Jesus HIMSELF explained.

Yeah ..... I'm well aware of the theory, and it's full of holes.
For instance,
1) JESUS WAS ALREADY IN CONFLICT WITH THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS. Rome couldn't care less! THEY only got involved because the religious leaders FORCED them to.
2) The religious leaders had already accused Jesus of "making himself equal with God".... so he had NOTHING to lose.
3) We have records of the apostles explaining who Jesus is/was to people who were outside of Israel, in some cases entirely pagan, and NOT ONCE do ANY of the apostles, or any other teacher in the Bible, explain a tenet that is unique to either trinity or oneness.

Jesus is God come as a man. What do you want Jesus to say?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do we define the word “faith” as people did in Jesus’ day as “trust”?

The Hebrew word translated as "faith" means "steadfastness", which requires much more action on our part than "trust".

Do we take the word “salvation” as transformation in this life or do we put the modern spin on it as meaning “belief”so we can go to heaven?

"Salvation" refers to being rescued from a peril, so it is important to identify the who/what/where/why/how of the peril so you don't make a mistake and think salvation is some kind of transformation in this life or some kind of belief.

In my opinion, you seem to be unwilling to beleive that the different versions are not all commandments from God.

All of God's commandments are from God.

This is one of the ten commandments that was written on stone tablets:

Exodus 20:8-11 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

Here is the "different version" that you are complaining about:

Deuteronomy 5:12-13 12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ***, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.​

Please notice the highlighted part that shows that this "different version" is not actually a different version of the command, but a reference to the commandment that was written on stone tablets along with some additional commentary from Moses.

You may be thinking that if there are different versions of the commandments, then this means to you that your faith is in vain.

No, I may be thinking that the people that believe there are different versions of the ten commandments need to read a bit more carefully so they don't make such a foolish mistake.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Of course you have, you just don't WANT to "see" it.

I haven't seen a "herbs only" commandment because there isn't one in the Bible.

I am guessing that you think this is a commandment, even though it is not a commandment?

Genesis 1:29 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.​

Do you know what a commandment is?

Yes. This is a permission and a commandment:

Genesis 2:16-17 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Please notice that man was permitted to eat from any tree of the garden but was commanded to not eat from the tree of he knowledge of good and evil.

 

[God's Truth]

Strange indeed but we are fortunate the Christians know there is a 10 at all...

jews attempted through slander and false witness to have believing jews and goyim think that Yahushua changed...even destroyed...the customs delivered by Moses

There is no other Prophet of God after Jesus.

Don't you ever think of that?

The Jews have no temple, and no High Priest.

The Jews can't atone for their souls with the blood of lambs.

Those things were established by God to Moses.

Those things were teaching tools, a shadow of Jesus.

No Jews obey God today, unless they make Jesus their High Priest, their Lamb, and their temple.

The only way Jews can have a relationship with God, is to go through Jesus.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If you don't believe that Jesus is God, you'll die in your sins.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus is not saying that you will die in your sins if you don't believe Jesus is God, He is saying that you will die in your sins if you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.

No, I admit to knowing Him in Whom I have my faith.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

If you don't know Jesus is the Son of God, then you don't really know Him.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You can't cherry pick your way through scripture

Because only Trinitarians can cherry pick their way through scripture. :duh:

 

[genuineoriginal]

So which is, it, Dart, was Jesus blaspheming God? Or was He God?

According to the actual words Jesus, neither.

John 10:36 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?​

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is not saying that you will die in your sins if you don't believe Jesus is God, He is saying that you will die in your sins if you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God.

If you don't know Jesus is the Son of God, then you don't really know Him.

We have to believe that Jesus is 'he'. That means we have to believe that we have to believe and obey Jesus.

That is more proof that Jesus is God.

He is 'he' the 'I Am'.

 

[God's Truth]

According to the actual words Jesus, neither.

John 10:36 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?​

God the Father came as a son of man.

All humans have spirits, and Jesus' spirit as a man was God's Spirit as a man's.


Jesus is God come as a man.

Read what Jesus says to the churches:

Revelation 2:23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.


That is what GOD DOES. God is the one who searches minds and hearts!

 

[genuineoriginal]

We have to believe that Jesus is 'he'. That means we have to believe that we have to believe and obey Jesus.

We must believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

Matthew 16:15-17 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

There is nothing in the Bible that says we must believe that Jesus is God instead of believing that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[genuineoriginal]

God the Father came as a son of man.

The Bible doesn't teach that at all, so you are getting that from somewhere other than the Bible.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

You give up way too easy, Trev. You always give up on The Word of God. You can't cherry pick your way through scripture, and then cry foul and repeatedly walk away when it doesn't agree with your cultic worldview.

I find your methods of discussion more difficult than any other member on this forum.

Said scripture, never.

Yes, Jesus’ glory is derived.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[God's Truth]

The Bible doesn't teach that at all, so you are getting that from somewhere other than the Bible.

I prove what I say with scripture and reasoning. Jesus reveals things to certain people.

 

[God's Truth]

We must believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

Matthew 16:15-17 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

There is nothing in the Bible that says we must believe that Jesus is God instead of believing that Jesus is the Son of God.

So you are arguing against what I said?
I said we have to believe that Jesus is 'he'. That means we have to believe that we have to believe and obey Jesus.

 

[Dartman]

Jesus isn't just some King of Israel like the other kings.

Jesus IS the King of all the kings.

Jesus is the ruler of kings of all the earth.

This is all true. It does NOT remove the fact that Jesus IS the King of Israel, and as such, the prophecies regarding the Kings of Israel apply to him.

King of kings is what the Bible says about God the Father.

So how many Kings of kings do you have?

Throughout time?? MANY! ANY King that had Kings under them can be rightly called "King of Kings";

Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.


Ezek 26:7 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people.


Dan 2:37-39 Thou, O king, art king of kings, unto whom the God of heaven hath given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory;
38 and wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens hath he given into thy hand, and hath made thee to rule over them all: thou art the head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee; and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

This utterly disproves the assumption that identical titles means identical beings are being discussed.

 

[Dartman]

I haven't seen a "herbs only" commandment because there isn't one in the Bible.

I am guessing that you think this is a commandment, even though it is not a commandment?

Your criteria for "commandment" is artificially narrow.
It's obvious WHY you want to distort the issue.

Genesis 1:29 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.​

Yes. This is a permission and a commandment:

Genesis 2:16-17 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Please notice that man was permitted to eat from any tree of the garden but was commanded to not eat from the tree of he knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 1:29-30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food:
30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, (I have given) every green herb for food: and it was so.
God not only ALTERED THIS COMMANDMENT, He altered the nature of the other animals;

Gen 9:1-4 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every bird of the heavens. With all wherewith the ground teemeth, and all the fishes of the sea, into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be food for you. As the green herb have I given you all. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, (which is) the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings SonOfCaleb,

The pronounciation Yahweh according to linguistic expert Rolf Furili is nothing more than a 'scholarly guess' and is likely an incorrect pronunciation of the name. There does appear to be ample proof that 'Yehovah' or Jehovah is the correct pronunciation of Gods divine name. As you rightly stated Jehovah has been used for hundreds of years and is the most well known transliteration and pronunciation of the name.

I appreciate your perspective, but there are many scholars such as Rotherham that suggest that the vowel pointings of Adonai or Elohim have been added to YHWH as a prompt for a reader not to pronounce the Divine Name. Jehovah is an English derivation when one set of these vowels is used with the consonants YHWH or YHVH. The fact that these two different versions appear in the Hebrew manuscript is considered adequate proof of this explanation. I suggest that you consider Rotherham’s introduction to his translation.

I realise that using “Jehovah” is important to you as a JW, as it would confirm your support of JW history and present status. To me, the fact that the JW movement adopted this name is evidence of my perspective, that JWs are sincere, but they have many wrong ideas. Nevertheless I am closer to JW theology than with many Protestant beliefs, as I accept the death of man and his sleep until the resurrection and that there is One God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. But even in these I have differences with the JW position, as I believe in the resurrection of Jesus from the grave, not the preservation of his corpse, and I do not believe that Jesus existed as Michael before his conception and birth.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[God's Truth]

This is all true. It does NOT remove the fact that Jesus IS the King of Israel, and as such, the prophecies regarding the Kings of Israel apply to him.

Throughout time?? MANY! ANY King that had Kings under them can be rightly called "King of Kings";

Ezra 7:12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.


Ezek 26:7 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people.


Dan 2:37-39 Thou, O king, art king of kings, unto whom the God of heaven hath given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory;
38 and wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens hath he given into thy hand, and hath made thee to rule over them all: thou art the head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee; and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

This utterly disproves the assumption that identical titles means identical beings are being discussed.

There IS ONLY ONE King of kings and ruler of all the kings of the earth!

Re read what I said and stop acting like you disproved something.

 

[God's Truth]

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Jesus is the I Am He of the Old Testament; which proves that he is the I Am He who is God.


John 8:58 "Truly, truly, I tell you," Jesus declared, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

John 8:24 That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.

John 4:26 Jesus answered, "I who speak to you am He."

John 13:19 I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it comes to pass, you will believe that I am He.

John 18:6 When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.