Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Apple7,
Apple7 said:
The Glory of The Father is Jesus Christ

• The Word became flesh, and we beheld His Glory, The Glory of an only begotten from The Father. (John 1.14)
• The Glory of Christ who is the image of God; The Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 4.6)
• The Son is the shining splendor of His Glory, and the express image of His essence. (Heb 1.3)
• Stephen looked to the heaven and saw God’s Glory, Jesus, The Son of man, standing at the Right of God. (Acts 7.55 – 56)
• The likeness of The Throne was a likeness like a man on it from above; this was the appearance of the likeness of The Glory of Yahweh. (Eze 1.26 – 28)
• Moses asked to see Yahweh’s Glory; Yahweh’s Glory passed before Moses and Moses saw Yahweh’s back, but not His face. (Exo 33.18 – 23)
• The Word (Eze 1.3) is also referred to as The Glory (Eze 1.28)
• The Glory has the appearance of a Man (Eze 1.26 – 28)
• Compare how the NT refers to the Son as the Glory & the Word (John 1.14; Heb 1.3)
• Ezekiel states that The Glory by the river (Eze 1.3, 28) is the same Glory as mentioned throughout the book (Eze 3.22 – 23; 10.18 – 20; 43.3)
• The Spirit & the Glory are mentioned together – but at the same time, distinction is made between them (Eze 1.28 – 2.2; 3.12 – 14, 23 – 24; 8.3 – 4; 10.18 – 11.1, 22 – 23; 43.1 – 5)
• The Man quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 44.6; 45.9, 18; 46.1, 16; 47.13)
• The Glory quotes the Father (Yahweh) (Eze 3.11 – 12; 11.5; 43.18, 19, 27)
• The Man (Eze 44.1) referred the Glory, and went through the east gate into the temple (Eze 43.2 – 5), as Yahweh the Father (Eze 44.2)
• Therefore, the Glory (the Word) is the Son
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This is a strange mixing of ideas. You should be able to do better than this (This is using your method of response, but I am not willing to waste my time to unravel your amalgam of ideas, and lack of understanding of many of the above passages - Jesus is the Son of God and his glory is derived, and God the Father has always had glory).

Kind regards
Trevor
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Dartman said:
Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.





It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!
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God came as a man and spoke the words of God the Father.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
TrevorL said:
When Jesus was nearing his ministry, he had grown in wisdom and the Divine character,
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Made up.

so that when Jesus was revealed to Israel, John says that they beheld his glory, and that glory was derived from the fact that he was the only begotten (conceived) of the Father Matthew 1:20-21, and this glory could be summarised as that he was full of grace and truth John 1:14.
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Made up.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

His glory was shining through His humanity here.

Luke 9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.​

And this refers to what we seeing in Isaiah.

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.​

Isaiah 6:1-3
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
 
T

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings glorydaz,
glorydaz said:
Made up. Made up.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
His glory was shining through His humanity here.
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The above is not speaking of his body or physical appearance being Deity, but his Divine character, his moral glory, he was full of grace and truth. The knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Luke 9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
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This is talking of the transfiguration and even Moses and Elijah appeared in glory. This was a vision of what Jesus would be like when he comes and in his future Kingdom.
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
And this refers to what we seeing in Isaiah.
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Isaiah 6:1-3 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
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Yes this is similar to the Transfiguration as it is a vision of Jesus as the future King/Priest upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem in the future Kingdom. Again this will also be physical glory as he will be an immortal, glorified being.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
7djengo7

7djengo7

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TrevorL said:
Greetings again Apple7,This is a strange mixing of ideas. You should be able to do better than this (This is using your method of response, but I am not willing to waste my time to unravel your amalgam of ideas, and lack of understanding of many of the above passages - Jesus is the Son of God and his glory is derived, and God the Father has always had glory).

Kind regards
Trevor
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Since you claim that the Son was created, and you say "God the Father has always had glory", why don't you try to explain exactly WHAT you imagine God the Father's glory was, before He created the Son?

Was God the Father glorifying Himself?
 
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TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again 7djengo7,
7djengo7 said:
Since you claim that the Son was created, and you say "God the Father has always had glory", why don't you try to explain exactly WHAT you imagine God the Father's glory was, before He created the Son? Was God the Father glorifying Himself?
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God the Father created or rather was the father of Jesus 2000 years ago. The Angels also existed before the Adamic creation and they would glorify God the Father. The following speaks of the glory of Yahweh before the birth of Jesus. This reveals both the physical glory and the moral glory or character of Yahweh, God the Father.
Exodus 33:18–20 (KJV): 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exodus 34:5–7 (KJV): 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
TrevorL said:
Greetings glorydaz, The above is not speaking of his body or physical appearance being Deity, but his Divine character, his moral glory, he was full of grace and truth. The knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.This is talking of the transfiguration and even Moses and Elijah appeared in glory. This was a vision of what Jesus would be like when he comes and in his future Kingdom.
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Yes this is similar to the Transfiguration as it is a vision of Jesus as the future King/Priest upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem in the future Kingdom. Again this will also be physical glory as he will be an immortal, glorified being.

Kind regards
Trevor
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Nope. You're clutching at straws instead of reading what is written. His "moral glory" is nothing but a straw you've had to latch onto. The glory of God in the FACE of Jesus Christ.

In context. 2 Cor. 4:3-4KJV But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

First you need to sort out what Glory is being talked about.....context is everything.

The Glory of God is not the "in glory" that Moses and Elijah appeared in. Just as Solomon in all his "glory" could not be compared to Divine Glory. Moses and Elijah, by the way, spoke of the Lord's coming demise, not of His future glory.

Instead, we see here the glory our Lord and Saviour had before the world was...with God. The Word was with God and the Word was God. John 1:1

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

Jesus Christ...the Lord of Glory. You can't explain all these away by His "Divine Character".

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.​
 
B

bibleverse2

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Dartman said:
It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!
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But He also is God:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

For He is God the Son:

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
 
Aimiel

Aimiel

Well-known member
Dartman said:
The "world" is Cosmos... the civilization. That's what Jehovah sent Jesus from Nazareth to change. And what Jesus sent his apostles into.

Jesus' ministry, death and resurrection shaped the world of the NT, and still creates the world we live in today.

The Scriptures are impeccably clear, Jehovah/YHVH God created the Universe ...... including Jesus.
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They are MORE than clear, they're un-mistakeably perfect in pointing out Jesus as Creator. If you don't believe that Jesus is God, you'll die in your sins.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
 
T

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again glorydaz,
glorydaz said:
Nope. You're clutching at straws instead of reading what is written. His "moral glory" is nothing but a straw you've had to latch onto. The glory of God in the FACE of Jesus Christ.
In context. 2 Cor. 4:3-4KJV But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
First you need to sort out what Glory is being talked about.....context is everything.
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I will assume that the last comment above applies to what you are saying concerning 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. The overall context is that Paul is contending with Judaisers who were trying to reimpose the Law of Moses. Paul contrasts the giving of the Law, and also how Moses’ face shone when he saw the glory of Yahweh. The Law was written on stones, while the teaching of Jesus is written on the hearts.

Looking at the portion that speaks of Jesus and his ministry and its effect upon us, Paul says:
2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV): But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 4:1-7 (KJV): 1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Now very few if any of the Corinthian believers would have literally seen the face of Jesus, but Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:18 “we all” behold “the glory of the Lord”. I cannot speak for you, but I have not personally seen the face of Jesus, and yet I can apply all of the above for my instruction. Thus it is not speaking of actually seeing the physical face of Jesus. Yes context is important and what the passage actually teaches is essential.
The Glory of God is not the "in glory" that Moses and Elijah appeared in. Just as Solomon in all his "glory" could not be compared to Divine Glory. Moses and Elijah, by the way, spoke of the Lord's coming demise, not of His future glory.
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Luke 9:28–31 (KJV): 28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Moses and Elijah appeared in glory, and it also says that the glory of God the Father is “the excellent glory”. I am not sure if this fits in with your view. Yes, the glory revealed in Jesus would have been greater than that of Moses and Elijah, but less than the “excellent” glory of God the Father.
Instead, we see here the glory our Lord and Saviour had before the world was...with God. The Word was with God and the Word was God. John 1:1
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I believe that the Word in John 1:1 is a personification, similar to the wise woman “Wisdom” who was with God the Father in the creation. The connection with John 1:14 is the moral aspect of God’s character “The Word” and Jesus revealing this glory, he was full of grace and truth. The Word was made flesh, not Deity and flesh. It also does not say that the flesh was added to the Deity. I will leave the rest of your Post due to the length of this reply.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
S

SabathMoon

BANNED
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Aimiel said:
No, I admit to knowing Him in Whom I have my faith.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
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Another person who doesn't know the meaning of the word YHWH.
 
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