Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[Idolater]

I've been looking at John 14 now. Recall that I am not a Christian, so I am reading it out of interest only. I see Jesus explaining the relationship between himself, his followers, and God.

20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and [f]manifest Myself to him.”​

It's hard to claim identity between Jesus and God based on this. More like a special connection, parallel to what Jesus has with his followers.

As far as "commandments" is concerned- what is Jesus referring to? Maybe the following chapter (John 15) tells us:

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.​

The commandments of Jesus are not identical to God's commandments.

Food for thought.

Chair

The Trinity denies that Christ the Son is identical to the Father in all ways, though in some ways He is the Father. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct, and the same, but in different ways. One traditional nutshell, is to say that the Three are One essence /substance (the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed says "consubstantial"), and Three Persons. And as I've already mentioned, the distinctions are summed up in saying that the Father generates the Son (distinction between the Father and the Son), and that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son (distinction between the Father and the Son, and Spirit).

This is Apostolic teaching, and since the Church subsists on the Apostles' teaching, and always has from day one (Acts 2:42 KJV), the Church is Trinitarian. Whether or not we can derive the full Trinity from our Bible is an aside. It turns out that imo what we can do is confirm from the Bible that the Trinity is correct, but it's not as if there is a book or even a chapter in Scripture devoted to teaching the Trinitarian nature of God. We rely upon what the Apostles taught apart from what was written down during the Apostolic era, though of course every word of our Scripture is God-breathed and utterly true, and the Bible does confirm that the Trinity is true.

fwiw.

 

[clefty]

The Trinity denies that Christ the Son is identical to the Father in all ways, though in some ways He is the Father. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct, and the same, but in different ways. One traditional nutshell, is to say that the Three are One essence /substance (the Nicene-Constantinopolitan creed says "consubstantial"), and Three Persons. And as I've already mentioned, the distinctions are summed up in saying that the Father generates the Son (distinction between the Father and the Son), and that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son (distinction between the Father and the Son, and Spirit).

This is Apostolic teaching, and since the Church subsists on the Apostles' teaching, and always has from day one (Acts 2:42 KJV), the Church is Trinitarian. Whether or not we can derive the full Trinity from our Bible is an aside. It turns out that imo what we can do is confirm from the Bible that the Trinity is correct, but it's not as if there is a book or even a chapter in Scripture devoted to teaching the Trinitarian nature of God. We rely upon what the Apostles taught apart from what was written down during the Apostolic era, though of course every word of our Scripture is God-breathed and utterly true, and the Bible does confirm that the Trinity is true.

fwiw.

The East maintains the Spirit is of the Father only...
The West insists the Spirit is of the Father and the Son...

Odd that the Son is of the Holy Spirit then...and yet calls a third His Father...

 

[Idolater]

The East maintains the Spirit is of the Father only...
The West insists the Spirit is of the Father and the Son...

More specifically, the Orthodox believe that the Spirit proceeds only from the Father, and not also from the Son. In Latin (or maybe Greek), there is one word, 'filioque,' that the Catholic bishops authorize as part of the Creed, and the Orthodox bishops do not. This, combined with different views of the chair of Peter (the Holy See in Rome), was the entire reason why the Catholics and Orthodox schismed, and why they remain schismed to this day.

It's really sad in some ways, that even after almost 1000 years, all these valid bishops cannot see eye-to-eye sufficiently to reunite them both in a single church, as the whole entire Church was before AD 1054.

Odd that the Son is of the Holy Spirit then...and yet calls a third His Father...

It's right in keeping with the Trinity. Not odd at all.

 

[JudgeRightly]

All of the commandments from Genesis to Revelation originated with Jehovah/YHVH God,

Which makes them GOD'S commandments.

He commanded Adam and Eve, He commanded Noah, He commanded Abraham, and Moses and Jesus.

And yet, ONLY JESUS claimed the commandments as HIS. No one else but God claimed such.

WAS JESUS LYING, claiming something as His that didn't belong to Him, but rather to God? or was He telling the truth, and claiming to be God, because the commandments belong to God, and He being God, the commandments also belong to Him?

Both Moses and Jesus, as prophets\servants of Jehovah, gave those commandments FOR God, so the Scriptures state that "Moses commanded";

Lev 9:55 And they brought that which Moses commanded before the tabernacle of the congregation: and all the congregation drew near and stood before the Lord.

Num 34:13
13 And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying, This is the land which ye shall inherit by lot, which the Lord commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half tribe:

Num 36:5
5 And Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of Jehovah, saying, The tribe of the sons of Joseph speaketh right.

Deut 31:10
10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of (every) seven years, in the set time of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

Deut 31:25-26
25 that Moses commanded the Levites, that bare the ark of the covenant of Jehovah, saying,
26 Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deut 33:4
4 Moses commanded us a law, An inheritance for the assembly of Jacob.

Josh 8:35
35 There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel with the women and the little ones and the strangers who were living among them.

Matt 8:4
4 And Jesus said to him, "See that you tell no one; but go, show yourself to the priest and present the offering that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

Mark 1:44
44 and He said to him, "See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

Luke 5:14
14 And He ordered him to tell no one, "But go and show yourself to the priest and make an offering for your cleansing, just as Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

Not a single one of these verses call the commandments "Moses' commandments," just that Moses provided them to the people of Israel.

The king is supposed to know the law. That Jesus did. Your argument for this as being proof of something else is lame.

Just because the king knows the law doesn't make it HIS law.

Jesus claimed the commandments were "My commandments."

But the commandments are God's. Either Jesus was lying and a fraud, claiming to be God but really was not, or He was telling the truth, because He really is God, and the commandments really are His commandments.

Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic, or he is LORD.

There are no other possibilities.

Jesus was not perfect which is the meaning the word Agathos which is wrongly translated good.

From Merriam-Webster:

Perfect:
1a : being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS

Sabath, you are now claiming that Jesus was flawed in some way.

Please tell us why you are now asserting this.

Because as it now stands, you have just accused Jesus of being an invalid sacrifice for mankind, and gone against scripture which calls him the "Spotless Lamb of God," and rendered all of scripture invalid.

You need to rethink your position, before you start calling God a liar.

 

[Dartman]

Which makes them GOD'S commandments.

Agreed.

And yet, ONLY JESUS claimed the commandments as HIS.

Again, your ATTEMPT to artificially limit the topic to CLAIMING the commandments ignores the Scripture STATING Moses gave commandments.
Sorry, you fail, since Scripture disagrees with you.

WAS JESUS LYING, claiming something as His that didn't belong to Him, but rather to God?

Of course not!! When God GIVES you something, it IS YOURS!!

 

[clefty]

More specifically, the Orthodox believe that the Spirit proceeds only from the Father, and not also from the Son. In Latin (or maybe Greek), there is one word, 'filioque,' that the Catholic bishops authorize as part of the Creed, and the Orthodox bishops do not. This, combined with different views of the chair of Peter (the Holy See in Rome), was the entire reason why the Catholics and Orthodox schismed, and why they remain schismed to this day.

It's really sad in some ways, that even after almost 1000 years, all these valid bishops cannot see eye-to-eye sufficiently to reunite them both in a single church, as the whole entire Church was before AD 1054.

Well that is the tradition of man...always changing and breaking with tradition...certainly with what was established by Him...

You miss the bigger issue...that the trinity is not agreed upon even by its believers

It's right in keeping with the Trinity. Not odd at all.

Yup and a logical fallacy...

The Son is of the Spirit says the Book and yet your creed states the Spirit is of the Son...

 

[clefty]

Agreed.

Again, your ATTEMPT to artificially limit the topic to CLAIMING the commandments ignores the Scripture STATING Moses gave commandments.
Sorry, you fail, since Scripture disagrees with you.

Of course not!! When God GIVES you something, it IS YOURS!!

But commandments are abolished or not ours as not dispensed to us or something

BTW-We can lose what is given to us by Him

Like the ark...temple...land...lives...salvation

 

[JudgeRightly]

Agreed.

Again, your ATTEMPT to artificially limit the topic

Except I'm not. I'm simply reading scripture plainly.

Jesus calls the commandments His commandments.
God calls the commandments His commandments.
Either the commandments belong to Jesus, or they belong to God.
Since everything belongs to God, either Jesus is lying, or He is claiming to be God.

And since Jesus never lied, that means He is claiming to be God.

to CLAIMING the commandments ignores the Scripture STATING Moses gave commandments.

Giving commandments does not inherently imply ownership of those commandments.

Sorry, you fail, since Scripture disagrees with you.

Claiming ownership of something and giving something to someone else that was originally given to you are completely different things.

God owns everything.

Of course not!! When God GIVES you something, it IS YOURS!!

No, it's not.

If God gave me a new car, ultimately, it belongs to Him, because He is the Creator of everything used to make it. He would just be loaning it to me.

The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein. - Psalm 24:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm24:1&version=NKJV

Dartman,

Do the 10 commandments belong to God?

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, Possibly you have not reconciled the following with your claim and to me these disprove your theology on this subject:
1. Wisdom, Jesus increased in wisdom:
Luke 2:52 (KJV): And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

2. God His Father made Jesus Lord and Christ, showing that he did not have these before this process:
Acts 2:36 (KJV): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

Please study Phil 2.

 

[Idolater]

Well that is the tradition of man...always changing and breaking with tradition...certainly with what was established by Him...

I believe that it is Apostolic tradition, being theologically Catholic, and so I don't accept that 'filioque' is "of man," but instead "of God." And as for what was established by God, I put right up near the top the hierarchy of pastors, the bishops, who were invented by the Apostles themselves, and are mentioned in numerous places in the New Testament, including but not limited to 1st Timothy 3:1 KJV.

You miss the bigger issue...that the trinity is not agreed upon even by its believers

I don't miss that, I just don't put a lot of weight onto it. Fact is that apart from the 'filioque,' all validly ordained /consecrated /appointed bishops agree on the Trinity. For those lay faithful who do not agree with the bishops, then they are objectively incorrect. See above re: the bishops were established by God (through the Apostles).

Yup and a logical fallacy...

Non-Trinitarians must see logical fallacy in the Trinity, otherwise you'd be Trinitarian. iow you're just begging the question.

The Son is of the Spirit says the Book and yet your creed states the Spirit is of the Son...

There are the passages John 14:26 KJV and John 15:26 KJV also to consider I think.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Please study Phil 2.

I have considered Philippians 2. I understand this to be speaking concerning the disposition of the mind of Jesus before and during his ministry. As the Son of God he had been born the greatest of all, but instead of using this as some worldly princes in their pride and arrogance, he humbled himself to become a servant, fulfilling the will of His Father, in suffering to save humanity. As a result God the Father has exalted Jesus, and when we bow in reverence and worship before Jesus it is to the glory of God the Father. The alternative that you present is that Jesus had two minds at the same time, the mind of a child, and the mind of God. A mind that does not know all things, but needs to grow and gain wisdom, and the other mind that knows all things and has complete wisdom. This is an impossibility, and this answers your assertion that Jesus has not changed, but has been the same from eternity. Please reconsider Philippians 2.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dartman]

But commandments are abolished or not ours as not dispensed to us or something

Jehovah/YHVH God's commandment before the flood was;
Gen 1:29-30 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food: 30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, (I have given) every green herb for food: and it was so.

AFTER the flood THIS is Jehovah's commandment;
Gen 9:2-4 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every bird of the heavens. With all wherewith the ground teemeth, and all the fishes of the sea, into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be food for you. As the green herb have I given you all. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, (which is) the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.


What happened to the first dietary commandment? (The second was, do NOT eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil Gen 2:17)

 

[Dartman]

Except I'm not. I'm simply reading scripture plainly.

Jesus calls the commandments His commandments.

Jesus himself says his commandments (they ARE Christ's commandments, because his God GAVE them to him), are NOT FROM himself, they ARE from his Father.
John 12:49-50 49 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I have considered Philippians 2. I understand this to be speaking concerning the disposition of the mind of Jesus before and during his ministry. As the Son of God he had been born the greatest of all, but instead of using this as some worldly princes in their pride and arrogance, he humbled himself to become a servant, fulfilling the will of His Father, in suffering to save humanity. As a result God the Father has exalted Jesus, and when we bow in reverence and worship before Jesus it is to the glory of God the Father. The alternative that you present is that Jesus had two minds at the same time, the mind of a child, and the mind of God. A mind that does not know all things, but needs to grow and gain wisdom, and the other mind that knows all things and has complete wisdom. This is an impossibility, and this answers your assertion that Jesus has not changed, but has been the same from eternity. Please reconsider Philippians 2.

Kind regards
Trevor

I'm looking for you to put forth a little bit more effort than just stating your worldview.

Please actually address the Greek, tell us about the incarnation verbs employed, and then please discuss the OT reference to which it applies.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus himself says his commandments (they ARE Christ's commandments, because his God GAVE them to him), are NOT FROM himself, they ARE from his Father.
John 12:49-50 49 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.

A single commandment is not multiple commandments.

Please show us any other commandments in that verse, which states that God gave him a commandment (singular) on what to say.

Jesus claimed that the COMMANDMENTS were His commandments.

Either Jesus is lying about the commandments (plural) being his, and God told Him (single commandment) to lie about the commandments (plural) being His, or He is claiming to be God by calling the commandments (plural) that belong to God that God gave to Moses "My commandments" (plural).

 

[SabathMoon]

Which makes them GOD'S commandments.



And yet, ONLY JESUS claimed the commandments as HIS. No one else but God claimed such.

Suggestions and laws are shared. You don't have a worthy point. They weren't just God's commandments/suggestions.

 

[Dartman]

A single commandment is not multiple commandments.

Please show us any other commandments in that verse, which states that God gave him a commandment (singular) on what to say.

Sorry, that's not how grammar works!! Jesus said his Father gave him a commandment "what to say"..... SO, until YOU can prove some LIMIT on this, it applies to EVERYTHING Jesus said.

PLUS, Jesus himself explains why your artificially narrow interpretation of the Scriptures is wrong;
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

reemata .... Greek Noun , Neuter , Greek Plural , Greek Accusative




I know why it is so important for you to twist these verses ...... the FACT that Jesus' Father is the SOURCE of the words (plural) Jesus spoke UTTERLY proves Jehovah/YHVH God is in FACT "the Father".... and Jesus of Nazareth is NOT.

 

[JudgeRightly]

QUOTE=SabathMoon;5316505]Suggestions and laws are shared.[/QUOTE]

Which does not rebut what I said.

You don't have a worthy point.

:blabla:

They weren't just God's commandments/suggestions.

Who said anything about suggestions?

God's commands are God's, not man's.

 

[7djengo7]

Of course I did. You just didn't like the answers.

No, you didn't, you hardened liar. Again, here're the questions I asked you:

• Do you call more than one person "Jesus"? Yes or No?
• How many persons, besides Jesus, Himself, do you call "Jesus"?
• Would you say that Paul was calling another person--besides Jesus, Himself--"Jesus", when he used the phrase "another Jesus"? Yes or No?

You answered not a single one of these. Two of them are simple Yes or No questions. Until you respond to those two questions by saying either "Yes" or "No", you will continue in your present status of not having answered them. Why is it so undesirable to you to answer those questions?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sorry, that's not how grammar works!!

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Yes, that is EXACTLY how grammar works.

Jesus said his Father gave him a commandment "what to say"..... SO, until YOU can prove some LIMIT on this, it applies to EVERYTHING Jesus said.

Jesus Himself defined what it applies to:

For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak[/QUOTE].And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.” - John 12:49-50 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John12:49-50&version=NKJV

Duh.

Which brings us back to this:

Was Jesus just "following orders" when He claimed the commandments (plural) as "My commandments"?

Or did He mean what He said, the commandments (plural) truly being His, because He is God, as all the commandments are God's.

PLUS, Jesus himself explains why your artificially narrow interpretation

This coming from someone who is trying to expand the meaning of what scripture says to things that it does not mean...

of the Scriptures is wrong;

Scripture is not wrong. Your beliefs are.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Yes, words make up commandments.

But one commandment is made up of one or more words, which renders your entire argument invalid.

Your argument that since Christ said "the words that I speak" are from the Father it must mean "the commandment(s)" are from God.

Words are not inherently commandments.

Yes, commandments are made up of words.

All commandments are made up of words.

But not all words are commandments.

reemata .... Greek Noun , Neuter , Greek Plural , Greek Accusative

:blabla:

You don't know the Greek well enough to school me, poser.

Go have a seat at the back of the classroom.

I know why it is so important for you to twist these verses

Bearing false witness is a sin.

You should repent.

...... the FACT that Jesus' Father is the SOURCE of the words (plural)

"Words" are not inherently "commandments."

YOU need to prove that when Jesus says "words" He means Commandments.

Jesus spoke UTTERLY proves Jehovah/YHVH God is in FACT "the Father".... and Jesus of Nazareth is NOT.

:blabla:

Either Jesus was claiming to be God by claiming the commandments (plural) are "My commandments" or He was lying about the commandments being His because they're really God's and God told Him to lie.