Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Since scripture maintains that the Second Person of The Trinity has always existed, please tell us what exactly Jesus gained that He didn't always have to begin with...

Possibly you have not reconciled the following with your claim and to me these disprove your theology on this subject:
1. Wisdom, Jesus increased in wisdom:
Luke 2:52 (KJV): And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

2. God His Father made Jesus Lord and Christ, showing that he did not have these before this process:
Acts 2:36 (KJV): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aimiel]

And, Jesus spoke what his God commanded him to speak, and did the works his God showed him. No he is the fulfillment of his God's words. True, but it's because Jesus subjected his own will to his God's will. True, "even as" the believers are ALSO One with Jesus, and his God. Jesus' God ordained Jesus, exalted Jesus, GAVE Jesus all power, and all authority, Jesus obeyed his God perfectly, and transformed his spirit to match his God's spirit. That's the fulness of Godliness all right!

So, you won't accept that Jesus is God. I'm not one who believes that is enough to make Jesus part of your life. I can't say that I believe that you have any part in Him, since He doesn't seem to have any part in you. He (being God) is in me and I'm in Him. I know Him, personally. I don't believe that you can say the same.

 

[Dartman]

Jesus says his commandments came from his Father.

No, He does not.

John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[Dartman]

Where does Jesus say his commandmentS came from his Father?
Where does Jesus say specifically his commandmentS were NOT from himself?

John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.




"commandmentS", are "sayings", are "the word" which they heard ..... NONE of those originated with Jesus, they originated with the Father.

 

[Dartman]

So, you won't accept that Jesus is God.

Jesus said his Father is "the ONLY true God".

I'm not one who believes that is enough to make Jesus part of your life. I can't say that I believe that you have any part in Him, since He doesn't seem to have any part in you. He (being God) is in me and I'm in Him. I know Him, personally. I don't believe that you can say the same.

Of course I can. The Jesus I know personally is the "Jesus" preached by the apostles. In contrast to a trinitarian, or a oneness "Jesus".

 

[JudgeRightly]

John 12:49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

A commandment (singular) ... Of what to say and speak.

Which changes nothing about Jesus calling the COMMANDMENTS (plural) His commandments.

Or are you asserting that God told Jesus to lie about calling the commandments "My commandments", when they are actually the Father's commandments?

Are you calling God AND Jesus liars?

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus said his Father is "the ONLY true God".

He is, and He is Triune in nature. Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE.

All other gods are false.

 

[chair]

“Where are the Old Testament seeds of the Trinity? In Deuteronomy 6:4, one finds the Shema, the Jewish expression of monotheism: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." There are two words in Hebrew for one. Yachid means only one. Echod means a compound unity or a united one—as in Genesis: "evening and morning . . . one day" or "husband and wife . . . one flesh." This second word, echod, which describes a unity of beings, is the one used to speak of God, who is not by essence a solitude, but a unity of three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Ibid.

A compound unity or a united one is described as TWO...Let US...and in His image He created them Male and Female...TWO

And from the ONLY IMMORTAL ETERNAL ONE the Son finally begotten was of His Father’s substance...just as from the mud Adam was created but Eve was made from Adam...

This "compound unity" bit is nonsense, though commonly tossed about. Echad means simply "one".

 

[clefty]

This "compound unity" bit is nonsense, though commonly tossed about. Echad means simply "one".

אֶחָד ʼechâd, ekh-awd'; a numeral from H258; properly, united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal) first:—a, alike,...altogether

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexImage.cfm?tv=1549279942895&a


Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first H259 day.

Gen 1:9
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one H259 place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Gen 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one H259 flesh.

Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one H259 of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

Eze 37:16
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one H259 stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another H259 stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions

Eze 37:17
And join them one H259 to another H259 into one H259 stick; and they shall become one H259 in thine hand.

Eze 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one H259 stick, and they shall be one H259 in mine hand.

Eze 37:22
And I will make them one H259 nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one H259 king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

(Personal favorite)

Isa 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, H259 and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


From root:

אָחַד ʼâchad, aw-khad'; perhaps a primitive root; to unify, i.e. (figuratively) collect (one's thoughts):—go one way or other.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexImage.cfm?tv=1549280269974&a

 

[chair]

אֶחָד ʼechâd, ekh-awd'; a numeral from H258; properly, united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal) first:—a, alike,...altogether




Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first H259 day.

Gen 1:9
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one H259 place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Gen 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one H259 flesh.

Gen 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one H259 of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

Eze 37:16
Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one H259 stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another H259 stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions

Eze 37:17
And join them one H259 to another H259 into one H259 stick; and they shall become one H259 in thine hand.

Eze 37:19
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one H259 stick, and they shall be one H259 in mine hand.

Eze 37:22
And I will make them one H259 nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one H259 king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

(Personal favorite)

Isa 65:25
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, H259 and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


From root:

אָחַד ʼâchad, aw-khad'; perhaps a primitive root; to unify, i.e. (figuratively) collect (one's thoughts):—go one way or other.

Do your examples make sense in English, with the word "one"? I believe they do. Does anybody suggest that the English word "one" actually means "compound unity? I think not. So why insist that in Hebrew Echad means "compound unity".

Not to mention the minor fact that "echad" is used to indicate things like "one ram" or "one cow" throughout the OT. Are cows and sheep "compound unities"?

Believe in whatever you lie, but don't pretend that words have a different meaning than they do.

 

[clefty]

Do your examples make sense in English, with the word "one"? I believe they do.

well we are indeed grateful for your blessing

Does anybody suggest that the English word "one" actually means "compound unity? I think not. So why insist that in Hebrew Echad means "compound unity".

words mean in context...one can indeed mean from a unity of compounds...it’s the context...1,2,3 are all different but can be united in one math problem/solution 1+2=3

Not to mention the minor fact that "echad" is used to indicate things like "one ram" or "one cow" throughout the OT. Are cows and sheep "compound unities"?

if they are in my truck they are one load...and might have said “Let Us get into the truck”

Believe in whatever you lie, but don't pretend that words have a different meaning than they do.

the words or the Word?

 

[chair]

words mean in context...one can indeed mean from a unity of compounds...it’s the context...1,2,3 are all different but can be united in one math problem/solution 1+2=3

if they are in my truck they are one load...and might have said “Let Us get into the truck”

the words or the Word?

...so if one is already convinced that the Trinity is in the Bible, you can pretend that the "context"- i.e. the Trinitarian supposition, implies a unity of compounds, and thus a Trinity. It is necessary to use such tricks, because for some strange reason, the Trinity doesn't appear in plain language in the text.

Just don't try to convince non-trinitarians with these games.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

MAGAZINE ARTICLE
Explaining the Trinity
by Tim Staples

READ: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/explaining-the-trinity

I challenge people to actually thoroughly read that article and then comment please.

 

[clefty]

...so if one is already convinced that the Trinity is in the Bible, you can pretend that the "context"- i.e. the Trinitarian supposition, implies a unity of compounds, and thus a Trinity. It is necessary to use such tricks, because for some strange reason, the Trinity doesn't appear in plain language in the text.

Just don't try to convince non-trinitarians with these games.

Yup once a mind is made up it is closed...is why we should train a child...and be like children...trust the Word...its unity in compounds...

Trinitarians have much to unlearn...

As it is true people can pretend...even that their god begot no Son...is not a compound of “Us”

 

[clefty]

MAGAZINE ARTICLE
Explaining the Trinity
by Tim Staples

READ: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/explaining-the-trinity

I challenge people to actually thoroughly read that article and then comment please.

Challenge accepted as you broke from the original.

The East believes the Spirit is of the Father ALONE...through the Son

The west broke with that insisting the Spirit is of Father and Son...

Odd the Son is of the Holy Spirit yet calls still Another His Father...

 

[chair]

MAGAZINE ARTICLE
Explaining the Trinity
by Tim Staples

READ: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/explaining-the-trinity

I challenge people to actually thoroughly read that article and then comment please.

It is statements like this that leave me scratching my head:
"There are not "two beings" involved; rather, two persons relationally distinct, while ever-remaining one in being."
"Biblically speaking, we see each of the persons in God revealed as relationally distinct and yet absolutely one in nature in manifold texts."

Do you see how this looks like just a tad weird to the outsider? The terms "meaningless" and "semantic words games" come to mind. I'll spare you the stronger language that pops into my head.

Then he gets into Love:
"God is not revealed to "be" love in any other religion in the world other than Christianity because in order for there to be love, there must be a beloved."
First of all- who says God has to "be Love"?
Secondly, the Bible says that God loves. Not that he loves his relationally-distinct-self, but that He loves Israel:
Deuteronomy 7:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

In short- that article might make Catholics feel better about their beliefs, but it is not going to convince anybody else.

His analogies towards the end are interesting, but also not convincing.

 

[Dartman]

A commandment (singular) ... Of what to say and speak.

Yes, and the "what to say and speak" includes all of Christ's commandments..... Just like Jehovah telling Moses what to say and speak includes all of Moses' Commandments.

 

[Dartman]

He is,

Correct.

and He is Triune in nature.

Incorrect. The Bible is entirely devoted to God being the ultimate being, the Creator of the universe.
NEVER does a single Scripture state your premise. NEVER does a teacher in the Bible PREACH your theory to an audience.

Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE.

Of course, just like the believers are all ONE with Jesus, and his God.

All other gods are false.

Correct. All other God's than the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus, are false gods.

 

[clefty]

Yes, and the "what to say and speak" includes all of Christ's commandments..... Just like Jehovah telling Moses what to say and speak includes all of Moses' Commandments.

And since jews claiming Yahushua changed the customs of Moses delivered to them was FALSE WITNESS meant to slander Stephen Acts 6:13-14 it remains ONE LAW for jew and goyim alike...as it was when the church was in the wilderness...

Confirmed by the Jerusalem Council as all 4 requirements were already in the OT for goyim...3 of which regarding dietary laws...all pleasing to the Holy Spirit of Yah...as even James concludes the council expecting goyim to keep hearing Moses preached and read in every city EVERY SABBATH...Acts 15:21

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, and the "what to say and speak" includes all of Christ's commandments..... Just like Jehovah telling Moses what to say and speak includes all of Moses' Commandments.

Which, again, leads back to my question:

Did God command Jesus to lie about the commandments being Jesus' commandments?

Or was Jesus telling the truth, calling the commandments "My commandments" because they were, in fact, Jesus' commandments, because Jesus is God, and the commandments are God's alone?