It sings a song of pain and death.
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
PureX said:
It comes with the terrirtory. I've seen Knight tussle with a lot of posters here and take some pretty harsh criticism himself, it goes both ways. It just stings a little more now that there are Rep Points at stake and he wields 75 of them every time he hits the button. :chuckle:
PureX
Well-known member
I was not implying that at all. And I don't believe that at all. But the fact is, that if I were wanting to beat children, the best place for me to hide this desire from myself and from others is behind some religious fundamentalist dogma that justifies beating children. And there are people who abuse children, doing that. I was not accusing anyone here of being one of those people, but I am pointing out that they are among you, and you should be aware that it's your attitude about using violence against children that allows them to hide and to justify what they're doing.BillyBob said:
Purex,
Any form of punishment is abusive if it is done to an abusive degree. There will be people who abuse grounding, people who abuse withheld privledges, and people who abuse corporal punishment. I knew a kid who was grounded for a month for being home 5 minutes after his curfew on a weekend. To me, that is abusive.
I have experience with abuse. My parents both used corporal punishment. My mother was abusive, my father was not.
I can count on the fingers of my hands the times my father spanked me. Each time, it was for doing (or not doing) something after he made his rules and instructions and expectations crystal clear. And with the punishment, both before and after, came the lecture. It worked. My father had 2 hard-headed kids, my one brother and myself, and we required this. The other 2 might have been spanked 2 or 3 times. All he had to do was look at them and they would stop whatever misbehavior they were doing. And every one of his punishments was not corporal--he made the punishment fit the crime.
My mother, on the other hand, beat kids because she had a bad day. Or because she was angry with someone. Or when we did something that warranted punishment, she went over the top. She hit my sister in the head with an iron because she hadn't done the dishes as quickly as my mother wanted. She threw knives at my brother and I because we walked through the house with muddy shoes. My dad's reaction to that would have been get out the mop and broom and clean not only where you tracked but the rest of that room as well. I remember her throwing a 50# sack of dogfood on my sister for being on the phone too long. My sister was about 90# at the time. She also pushed me toward a fire when we were burning brush--the fire was low enough that I jumped over it. I could have just as easily fallen into it. My mother was also a hair puller, and don't let her get ahold of your hands--I have had fingers broken and dislocated for not being quick enough.
Let me take the case of the original kid who was grounded for getting home 5 minutes late. If I had done that, my father would have told me to be more careful the next time. 5 minutes--it's obvious that the kid was trying to get home on time--it's not a couple of hours. There would have been no punishment for that unless I kept getting a little later each time, seeing how far I could push it. For that, I would have spent a couple of nights grounded.
And for my father, corporal punishment was a punishment for a certain age. By the time we got 10 or so, it wasn't used. I think my brother was 12 the last time my father used it--he got the belt for throwing rotten squashes at a neighbor's passing truck and causing the guy to run off the road. Thankfully the man was not hurt nor his truck harmed, but my brother had to wash, wax, and buff the entire truck and personally apologize to the guy, and he got the lecture in addition as well. And he had to spend a day helping that neighbor dig postholes without pay.
The incident was not repeated.
These are the things that I consider to be abusive punishment.
1) When punishment is unwarranted.
2) When the person punished did not know that what they did or did not do was wrong.
3) When the form of punishment is excessive for the infraction.
4) When punishment is not followed up by addressing the issue of the infraction.
5) Broken bones, burns, sprains, cuts. (I don't include welts as excessive)
6) When the amount of punishment is excessive. 5 or 6 swats is not excessive. 40 is over the top. Grounding a kid for a month for being 5 minutes late is downright draconian.
Any form of punishment is abusive if it is done to an abusive degree. There will be people who abuse grounding, people who abuse withheld privledges, and people who abuse corporal punishment. I knew a kid who was grounded for a month for being home 5 minutes after his curfew on a weekend. To me, that is abusive.
I have experience with abuse. My parents both used corporal punishment. My mother was abusive, my father was not.
I can count on the fingers of my hands the times my father spanked me. Each time, it was for doing (or not doing) something after he made his rules and instructions and expectations crystal clear. And with the punishment, both before and after, came the lecture. It worked. My father had 2 hard-headed kids, my one brother and myself, and we required this. The other 2 might have been spanked 2 or 3 times. All he had to do was look at them and they would stop whatever misbehavior they were doing. And every one of his punishments was not corporal--he made the punishment fit the crime.
My mother, on the other hand, beat kids because she had a bad day. Or because she was angry with someone. Or when we did something that warranted punishment, she went over the top. She hit my sister in the head with an iron because she hadn't done the dishes as quickly as my mother wanted. She threw knives at my brother and I because we walked through the house with muddy shoes. My dad's reaction to that would have been get out the mop and broom and clean not only where you tracked but the rest of that room as well. I remember her throwing a 50# sack of dogfood on my sister for being on the phone too long. My sister was about 90# at the time. She also pushed me toward a fire when we were burning brush--the fire was low enough that I jumped over it. I could have just as easily fallen into it. My mother was also a hair puller, and don't let her get ahold of your hands--I have had fingers broken and dislocated for not being quick enough.
Let me take the case of the original kid who was grounded for getting home 5 minutes late. If I had done that, my father would have told me to be more careful the next time. 5 minutes--it's obvious that the kid was trying to get home on time--it's not a couple of hours. There would have been no punishment for that unless I kept getting a little later each time, seeing how far I could push it. For that, I would have spent a couple of nights grounded.
And for my father, corporal punishment was a punishment for a certain age. By the time we got 10 or so, it wasn't used. I think my brother was 12 the last time my father used it--he got the belt for throwing rotten squashes at a neighbor's passing truck and causing the guy to run off the road. Thankfully the man was not hurt nor his truck harmed, but my brother had to wash, wax, and buff the entire truck and personally apologize to the guy, and he got the lecture in addition as well. And he had to spend a day helping that neighbor dig postholes without pay.
The incident was not repeated.
These are the things that I consider to be abusive punishment.
1) When punishment is unwarranted.
2) When the person punished did not know that what they did or did not do was wrong.
3) When the form of punishment is excessive for the infraction.
4) When punishment is not followed up by addressing the issue of the infraction.
5) Broken bones, burns, sprains, cuts. (I don't include welts as excessive)
6) When the amount of punishment is excessive. 5 or 6 swats is not excessive. 40 is over the top. Grounding a kid for a month for being 5 minutes late is downright draconian.
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PureX
Well-known member
Crow,
Those are all very reasonable comments, and I'm sorry that you had to suffer the abuse of your mother. The only part I might disagree with would be the welts. I don't think most kids would need to be hit that hard or that many times to get the message. I also don't believe that hitting kids is a necessity. I think if parents start early with clear and consistant non-violent punishments, they won't have to use violence at all. Millions of parents have succesfully raised their children without ever hitting them. And I think they do it in a similar way as your dad. But they have to start early and they have to be clear and consistant.
Those are all very reasonable comments, and I'm sorry that you had to suffer the abuse of your mother. The only part I might disagree with would be the welts. I don't think most kids would need to be hit that hard or that many times to get the message. I also don't believe that hitting kids is a necessity. I think if parents start early with clear and consistant non-violent punishments, they won't have to use violence at all. Millions of parents have succesfully raised their children without ever hitting them. And I think they do it in a similar way as your dad. But they have to start early and they have to be clear and consistant.
the Sibbie
New member
I'm starting to think you have this huge chip on your shoulder. :think:Mr. 5020 said:
When I was a bit younger, I was married to a woman who had a 17 year old son who, with his buddies, broke into a vacation home and trashed it. They broke furniture, kicked in walls and generally busted everything they could. Thinking they could get away with it because the house was out in the country, they really went nuts.
When the time came to leave, the kid found that his car [a car in our name] was hopelessly stuck in the mud. He was screwed and he knew it. The cops had me come to the house and look at the extensive damage as well as get a tow truck to unstick the car. I couldn't believe how thorough these vandals were, they trashed EVERYTHING! I probably should have taken that kid out in the back yard and beat the crap out of him, I would have been justified, I'm sure. But I didn't........
The cop I was dealing with was pretty calm about the whole thing and obviously started his investigation with my stepson. I told my kid that I expected him to give trhe cop all the names of his cohorts and cooperate fully. I sat with him as the Cop questioned him, assuring the kids full co operating. That kid was SCARED and the cop played into it beautifully. We had the kid thinking he was going to jail as soon as the meeting was over with.
Anyway, the kid spilled the beans on his friends and they actually, through cross questioning figured out pretty much which kid broke which items and put a price tag each kids recompence. The kid had a job and every penny he earned was paid to the owners of that house until he was square with them. He was grounded, lost driving priviledges and only narrowly escaped having my full wrath fall upon him in the back yard.
Looking back, I'm glad I didn't beat the crap out of him. He learned a far greater lesson by fessing up to his crimes and making full restitution. He went on to join the Navy and turned out to be a good kid.
I reckon some day he'll be escorting his own teenage son to the Police Station.
"World goes round in a circle....." :singer:
When the time came to leave, the kid found that his car [a car in our name] was hopelessly stuck in the mud. He was screwed and he knew it. The cops had me come to the house and look at the extensive damage as well as get a tow truck to unstick the car. I couldn't believe how thorough these vandals were, they trashed EVERYTHING! I probably should have taken that kid out in the back yard and beat the crap out of him, I would have been justified, I'm sure. But I didn't........
The cop I was dealing with was pretty calm about the whole thing and obviously started his investigation with my stepson. I told my kid that I expected him to give trhe cop all the names of his cohorts and cooperate fully. I sat with him as the Cop questioned him, assuring the kids full co operating. That kid was SCARED and the cop played into it beautifully. We had the kid thinking he was going to jail as soon as the meeting was over with.
Anyway, the kid spilled the beans on his friends and they actually, through cross questioning figured out pretty much which kid broke which items and put a price tag each kids recompence. The kid had a job and every penny he earned was paid to the owners of that house until he was square with them. He was grounded, lost driving priviledges and only narrowly escaped having my full wrath fall upon him in the back yard.
Looking back, I'm glad I didn't beat the crap out of him. He learned a far greater lesson by fessing up to his crimes and making full restitution. He went on to join the Navy and turned out to be a good kid.
I reckon some day he'll be escorting his own teenage son to the Police Station.
"World goes round in a circle....." :singer:
One more 'Belt' story.
My folks were divorced when I was young and I lived with my Mom who, because of the circumstance was the only disciplinarian. When I was about 7 or 8, I did something which made her take a belt to me. Now, up until this point, the only belt woopins I had ever received were from my Dad, Mom was a novice to say the least.
So she grabs the belt, doubles it in the fashion she had seen and commenced with my assswoopin. Within the first strike or two she lost her grip on the belt, the buckle end extending away from her as she swung. That buckle end of the belt wrapped around my waist squarely depositing that high speed buckle into my 'frontal region'. :shocked: I fell on the floor grabbing my 'boys' and screamed my head off as my horrified Mother threw down the belt and dropped to her knees realizing what happened. She was, of course, very sorry about this 'punishment gone really wrong' and she held me as my crying slowed and finally subsided.
My Mother never again used a belt as an instrument of punishment......
It's funny, the things we remember.
My folks were divorced when I was young and I lived with my Mom who, because of the circumstance was the only disciplinarian. When I was about 7 or 8, I did something which made her take a belt to me. Now, up until this point, the only belt woopins I had ever received were from my Dad, Mom was a novice to say the least.
So she grabs the belt, doubles it in the fashion she had seen and commenced with my assswoopin. Within the first strike or two she lost her grip on the belt, the buckle end extending away from her as she swung. That buckle end of the belt wrapped around my waist squarely depositing that high speed buckle into my 'frontal region'. :shocked: I fell on the floor grabbing my 'boys' and screamed my head off as my horrified Mother threw down the belt and dropped to her knees realizing what happened. She was, of course, very sorry about this 'punishment gone really wrong' and she held me as my crying slowed and finally subsided.
My Mother never again used a belt as an instrument of punishment......
It's funny, the things we remember.
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PureX said:
Purex, I'll agree with you to the point that I don't think hitting all kids is necessary. There are some that respond well without corporal punishment. But not a couple of the kids in my family.
The "sit on the chair and don't move"--an early form of "time-out" didn't work. We made a game out of it. Other kids would make faces at the kid on the chair--the kid on the chair made them back. And seeing how far you could rock the chair to walk it across the floor. And various and sundry other stunts--balancing on the chair in weird poses. On and on.
Go to your room? Cool! All my stuff is in there! I have entertainment!
My one brother and I were pretty tough kids to deal with.
There came a point that sometimes force was necessary. My father did not abuse it. Often just knowing that he was willing to act was a deterrent. He usually could stop misbehavior in the progress by using a certain tone in his voice. But we tended to push it, and we reaped the consequences.
