It sings a song of pain and death.

[Nathon Detroit]

PureX you are an idiot.

 

[Mr. 5020]

PureX you are an idiot.

While I don't completely agree with PureX, surely you could have used more brain cells than that.

 

[PureX]

While I don't completely agree with PureX, surely you could have used more brain cells than that.

"Stupid is as stupid does." We can't think with our emotions, we can only react.

 

[BillyBob]

All this righteous bravado aside, has it occurred to anyone that most kids who have been abused grow up to become abusers, and that the same excuses their abusers used, will become their own excuses later on?

The people responding to this thread are in favor of corporal punishment, not abuse.

When I was a kid, my best friend was my neighbor John. John's dad had a terrible temper and would often beat John, his sister, and even their mother on occasion.

What does any of this have to do with an occassional spanking?

They were not particularly religious, but the level of violence in their home was not much different that what many Christians think is reasonable and acceptable.

According to who? Define that level.

Yet to this day I still remember having a conversation with John, once, when we were about 10 or 11 years old. I had noticed that John was wincing and asked him why, and he told me his dad had beat him and had raised painful welts. He told me how much he hated his father for beiing so violent. And then he astonished me by saying that he couldn't wait until he had kids, so he could beat the sh__ out of them the way his dad does him. I was shocked! And I asked John why he'd want to do that to his own kids when he hated it so much that his dad did it to him.

But John had no answer. He didn't really understand his own emotions. He just kept saying that he was going to beat the sh__ out of them (his own kids).

John was really a good-natured kid when we were young. We laughed and joked around all the time. But when he grew up, he grew up to be just like his dad. He became a humorless, angry, man. And when he got married and had kids, he became known as a "very strict" father. I have no doubt in my mind that John has beat his own kids just as he was beaten as a kid. And if I were to ask him why he's doing this even though it caused him so much pain as a child, I doubt that he would understand his own emotions today any more than he understood them when he was 10 years old.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

I'm not the least bit impressed by anyone here's bragging about their use of violence in disciplining their kids.

Corporal punishment is equivilent to 'child abuse'?

And the fact that your parents did it to you doesn't impress me, either. I just keep thinking about what a great kid my friend John was, and what a humorless, violent jerk he became as an adult, just like his own father was. And yeah, I know .... you're different.

Humorless, violent jerk?

I don't know about you, but I have a great sense of humor and even though I have had the belt taken to my asss a few times as a kid, I have never had the occassion to do so to my kids. Not that I'm against it, the need just hasn't presented itself [yet]. I am not violent [but I'm not afraid to fight for what I believe in] and I'm only a jerk sometimes.

So I ask again, what does your story have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[PureX]

The people responding to this thread are in favor of corporal punishment, not abuse.

But then an abuser would say that exact same thing, wouldn't he/she? And in fact, an adult who abuses his/her child would BELIEVE that exact same thing, too. I'm sure if I asked my old friend John if he was a child abuser, he'd say no, that he's just a very strict father, who believes in "corporal punishment" just like his father had been.

That's why I posted what I did. I saw people almost bragging about how violence was used on them as kids, and how they were proud to do the same to their own. I didn't accuse anyone here of anything. I simply pointed out that child abusers look and sound just like this. And I reminded everyone that child abuse destroys people.

My friend John grew up to be an angry abusive man. His sister grew up to marry the meanest prick in my whole high school, and I have since heard that the police have been called a number of times to their home because of violence. I don't know if she has children or not, but if so, imagine what they're growing up with. And guess what ... they will very likely grow up to behave the same way as their parents are behaving toward them. So generation after generation the violence gets handed down. And lives are ruined. People are hurt and when alcoholism gets thrown into that violent mix, people even get killed.

The reason I reminded everyone of this is because NO parent should EVER be bragging about using violence against their kids. There may be rare occasions when only physical force will make a parent's command real to a child. But it sure as hell shouldn't be something any parent is proud of. Nor should it ever be something they like doing, or worse yet, something they consider a family tradition. If anything, their goal ought to be to raise their kids in such a way that they will never actually have to back up their commands with violence. Believe it or not, there are millions of parents out there who have never used violence against their children, and who have raised excellent kids to become excellent adults. When parents know what they're doing, they don't need violence, or humiliation, or screaming to get their kids to behave.

Now. What kind of an idiot would call me an idiot and dock me 75 weenie points for pointing this out? You tell me.

 

[Mr. 5020]

"Stupid is as stupid does." We can't think with our emotions, we can only react.

 

[SOTK]

Purex,

You can have some great posts sometimes and some intersting ideas. This post wasn't one of them. Spanking is not violent. It can be violent, sure, but so can yelling, grounding, and other forms of parental discipline gone wrong.

No one is "bragging" here. I think it's rather healthy to look back on what I learned from my spankings. They taught me valuable lessons. I'm grateful for what my parents taught me. Gratitude and respect is being shown here. Come on, Purex! :doh:

 

[PureX]

I think it's rather healthy to look back on what I learned from my spankings. They taught me valuable lessons. I'm grateful for what my parents taught me. Gratitude and respect is being shown here. Come on, Purex!

You still don't get the point. People who DO abuse their children SAY AND BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS. And so do the kids that they abused! I bet if I asked John if he was an abused child he'd say that he was not, and that he's "grateful" for all those beatings because they "made him tough".

 

[PureX]

That wasn't about you, sorry.

 

[Imrahil]

You still don't get the point. People who DO abuse their children SAY AND BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS. And so do the kids that they abused! I bet if I asked John if he was an abused child he'd say that he was not, and that he's "grateful" for all those beatings because they "made him tough".

Your line of argument seems to be unfalsifiable. You claim it is abuse and if the parents object, "Well, they would wouldn't they?" If the kids deny it, "Well that's what abused kids do isn't it?"

 

[PureX]

Your line of argument seems to be unfalsifiable. You claim it is abuse and if the parents object, "Well, they would wouldn't they?" If the kids deny it, "Well that's what abused kids do isn't it?"

That's why this abuse continues generation after generation. The only way to break the chain is for someone who has been abused to ADMIT to themselves that they have been abused, and to do what they have to do to ensure that they don't pass that violence on to another generation. Just as I've known John, I've also known a number of people who did find the courage to admit that they had been abused by the very people who claimed to love them most. It was not an easy thing for them to face, especially when their parents are still alive and swear that they're lying (well of course they do), and even their siblings swear it, too.

Abusers don't believe they're abusers. Victims often deny that they were victims. Yet the violence is real, and people's lives are ruined just the same. This isn't pleasant to think about, but it's the truth. And if YOU were one of the people lost in this cycle of abuse, you would be touting the virtues of "corporal punishment" as if it were the only sure and inevitable means of correcting a child, too. Because that's exactly what abusers believe. And I WANT you and everyone else here to think about that.

 

[Lighthouse]

All this righteous bravado aside, has it occurred to anyone that most kids who have been abused grow up to become abusers, and that the same excuses their abusers used, will become their own excuses later on?

When I was a kid, my best friend was my neighbor John. John's dad had a terrible temper and would often beat John, his sister, and even their mother on occasion. They were not particularly religious, but the level of violence in their home was not much different that what many Christians think is reasonable and acceptable. Yet to this day I still remember having a conversation with John, once, when we were about 10 or 11 years old. I had noticed that John was wincing and asked him why, and he told me his dad had beat him and had raised painful welts. He told me how much he hated his father for beiing so violent. And then he astonished me by saying that he couldn't wait until he had kids, so he could beat the sh__ out of them the way his dad does him. I was shocked! And I asked John why he'd want to do that to his own kids when he hated it so much that his dad did it to him.

But John had no answer. He didn't really understand his own emotions. He just kept saying that he was going to beat the sh__ out of them (his own kids).

John was really a good-natured kid when we were young. We laughed and joked around all the time. But when he grew up, he grew up to be just like his dad. He became a humorless, angry, man. And when he got married and had kids, he became known as a "very strict" father. I have no doubt in my mind that John has beat his own kids just as he was beaten as a kid. And if I were to ask him why he's doing this even though it caused him so much pain as a child, I doubt that he would understand his own emotions today any more than he understood them when he was 10 years old.

I'm not the least bit impressed by anyone here's bragging about their use of violence in disciplining their kids. And the fact that your parents did it to you doesn't impress me, either. I just keep thinking about what a great kid my friend John was, and what a humorless, violent jerk he became as an adult, just like his own father was. And yeah, I know .... you're different.

My father was abused as a child. He never abused me. Not once. But he did spank.:think:

 

[Lighthouse]

You know, I've tried to understand PoisoN's pov, but I just can't get my had that far up my anal cavity.:nono:

 

[PureX]

My father was abused as a child. He never abused me. Not once. But he did spank.:think:

Then I applaud him for his restraint. It must have sometimes been hard for him not to do to you what was done to him. I know that sounds like an odd thing to say, but most victims of abuse grow up with a hatred of themselves as victims that they subconscuoisly project onto their own kids, and then express in the same way as they were treated.

 

[PureX]

You know, I've tried to understand PoisoN's pov, but I just can't get my had that far up my anal cavity.:nono:

You need about 25 more years of life experience, and a whole lot more smarts than you appear to have, now.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

While I don't completely agree with PureX, surely you could have used more brain cells than that.

Why?

I call it like I see it.

 

[Husband&Father]

Lots of parents who are soft on their kids claim to love them, and I’m sure they do in some very real ways. However the Bible teaches that if you don’t discipline your children you don’t love them. How can this be true? We all know well intentioned liberals who refuse to spank, who refuse to exercise dominance, who try to reason with misbehaving toddlers and sincerely believe in the power of the time-out. Would we go so far as-to accuse them of not loving their children? I doubt we would, we tend to try and be nicer than God. God, on the other hand, says it straight up; if you don’t discipline ‘em you don’t love ‘em.

Parents who don’t spank are selfish. They don’t spank because they wish to maintain a superiority over parents who spank. Make no mistake about it’s about them. They believe that if they resort to spanking it reflects badly on them, they are less sophisticated, less intelligent and less in-control if they swat their brat.

They will say that they refrain from corporal punishment because it is harmful to the children. They have no evidence of it but they will say it.

Appropriate discipline when deserved is not abuse, appropriate and deserved being the operative words. If the discipline is consistently inappropriate (too harsh) or undeserved damage can be done to the little psyche if abuse continues over an extended period of time. (he may lose his faith in justice or become embittered)

But discipline, even corporal, that is not abuse is helpful not harmful.
If you believe in God ask yourself why he invented pain. If you don’t believe ask your self why nature installed pain sensors to make bad things hurt in all higher animals.
The answer God (or nature if you prefer) knows pain can teach instantaneously and unforgettably. Like a single prick of a rose thorn teaches us to respect the rose bush forever, a single swat on the fanny can teach a child to respect what needs to be respected.

 

[Lighthouse]

Then I applaud him for his restraint. It must have sometimes been hard for him not to do to you what was done to him. I know that sounds like an odd thing to say, but most victims of abuse grow up with a hatred of themselves as victims that they subconscuoisly project onto their own kids, and then express in the same way as they were treated.

He knew it was abuse when it was happening. And he promised himself never to do that to any of his children. He barely ever spanked me. I barely ever needed it. But there was one time that he didn't allow time for an explanation before bending me over his knee. And after he found out that I hadn't doen what he thought I did, it tore him up inside. I still don't think he's forgiven himself for that. He apologizes profusely every time the subject is broached. So I quit talking about it.

 

[BillyBob]

When parents know what they're doing, they don't need violence, or humiliation, or screaming to get their kids to behave.

Do you have any children?

Now. What kind of an idiot would call me an idiot and dock me 75 weenie points for pointing this out? You tell me.

What kind of idiot would call the Administrator of a forum an idiot?

 

[PureX]

Parents who don’t spank are selfish. They don’t spank because they wish to maintain a superiority over parents who spank. Make no mistake about it’s about them. They believe that if they resort to spanking it reflects badly on them, they are less sophisticated, less intelligent and less in-control if they swat their brat.

That's just plain foolish. The vast majority of parents who spank their kids are not child abusers. And the vast majority of parents who do not spank their kids are not practicing child neglect, either. It's not necessary to use physical violence to raise a child, nor does the lack of physical violence constitute neglect. Millions of parents raise millions of healthy, well-behaved children without using physical violence. And millions of parents raise millions of healthy, well-behaved kids using a minimum of physical violence. You're trying to justify one extreme against another. If I were you, I'd be asking myself why I'm doing that, because it's very creepy .

Appropriate discipline when deserved is not abuse, appropriate and deserved being the operative words. If the discipline is consistently inappropriate (too harsh) or undeserved damage can be done to the little psyche if abuse continues over an extended period of time. (he may lose his faith in justice or become embittered)

I agree.

But discipline, even corporal, that is not abuse is helpful not harmful.
If you believe in God ask yourself why he invented pain. If you don’t believe ask your self why nature installed pain sensors to make bad things hurt in all higher animals.
The answer God (or nature if you prefer) knows pain can teach instantaneously and unforgettably. Like a single prick of a rose thorn teaches us to respect the rose bush forever, a single swat on the fanny can teach a child to respect what needs to be respected.

This is all true, but I was writing about abuse that disguises itself as justifiable punishment. Because that's how abusers justify their abuse - as justifiable punishment. And guess what - lots of "good Christians" are child abusers. Lot's of child abusers are using God and the bible to justify their child abuse just as lots of Christian bigots are using God and the bible to justify their hatred of queers, atheists, liberal democrats, intellectuals, and God only know who else.

Christians seem to think that because they're Christians they are suddenly immune to their own sins. And it's this imaginary immunity that the bigot and abuser will hide his sins and his crimes behind. Just as a pedophile might find the priesthood a good place to hide while he practices his sickness, a child abuser would find religious fundamentalism a good place to hide his own desire to abuse children. That doesn't mean all fundamentalists are child abusers any more than it means all priests are pedophiles, but the fact is that these are good places for people which have these sicknesses to hide while they practice them.

And I think all you religious fundamentalists should think about that.