Rosenritter
New member
I may have to take Way 2 Go off my ignore list. Graphics like that are entertaining.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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I may have to take Way 2 Go off my ignore list. Graphics like that are entertaining.
Rosenritter
New member
the rich man negotiated, unsuccessfully .
Luk 16:30**And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.
Luk 16:31**And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.
Reminds me of the argument from a Fundamentalist Baptist Pastor. He claimed that Jonah was in HELL, that his BODY was in the WHALE while his SOUL was in HELL! He must have been yelling and fuming because he was spelling this out in all capitals.
Here's the source text:
Jonah 2:1-5 KJV
(1) Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
(2) And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
(3) For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
(4) Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
(5) The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
So, I asked, how was his "soul burning in hell" when the waters compassed him about, even to the soul? With weeds wrapped around his head?
Too bad he didn't have Way 2 Go to help him out. He was speechless, never got a reply from him on that.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Another look......
Another look......
Past commentary on ECT here.
So far in this discussion, there is no way to turn something insane (ECT) into something sane, rational or true to the meaning of the original language which further is in accord with God's character and universal principles. The continued effort to push an irrational doctrine which maligns God's character and ethic of moral and universal law, based on a literal mistranslation of a few passages, is unfortunate. Such a gesture towards error reflects a willful ignorance of all the factors available to provide the most logical and tenable interpretation within any given context.
It's time to 'Stop the insanity'.
Another look......
Past commentary on ECT here.
So far in this discussion, there is no way to turn something insane (ECT) into something sane, rational or true to the meaning of the original language which further is in accord with God's character and universal principles. The continued effort to push an irrational doctrine which maligns God's character and ethic of moral and universal law, based on a literal mistranslation of a few passages, is unfortunate. Such a gesture towards error reflects a willful ignorance of all the factors available to provide the most logical and tenable interpretation within any given context.
It's time to 'Stop the insanity'.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The essentials matter........
The essentials matter........
This is the absurdity that results from taking a parable as literally true.
Universal law holds that all souls reap whatever they sow, the consequences being proportional to the actions (this karmic principle is an inherent law of nature). Choices and actions may result in life or death ultimately....while in the meantime all is proportionally meted out, according to our works.
The only remedy for mortality is the putting on of immortality according to Paul's teaching. Until immortality is bestowed, the laws that govern ordinary movements in the material world (karmic interactions) continues, as all mortals by definition are subject to death, decay, disintegration. Hence 'conditional immortality'.
The condition requires meeting the qualifications to become immortal, hence the terms.
If we swing towards Universalism, we assume somehow the triumph of divine will and love ultimately wins and all souls are restored in Christ. I'd love for this to be, but freedom of choice seems to afford the full possibilities of both life and death.
The essentials matter........
This is the absurdity that results from taking a parable as literally true.
Universal law holds that all souls reap whatever they sow, the consequences being proportional to the actions (this karmic principle is an inherent law of nature). Choices and actions may result in life or death ultimately....while in the meantime all is proportionally meted out, according to our works.
The only remedy for mortality is the putting on of immortality according to Paul's teaching. Until immortality is bestowed, the laws that govern ordinary movements in the material world (karmic interactions) continues, as all mortals by definition are subject to death, decay, disintegration. Hence 'conditional immortality'.
The condition requires meeting the qualifications to become immortal, hence the terms.
If we swing towards Universalism, we assume somehow the triumph of divine will and love ultimately wins and all souls are restored in Christ. I'd love for this to be, but freedom of choice seems to afford the full possibilities of both life and death.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Hell bent...........
Hell bent...........
Indeed comical almost to a tear. Sadly....a 'god' who committs soul's to eternal hellfire to suffer TO NO END.... reflects a most diabolical deity if he could be called a deity. All else in this equation is a matter of principle, morals, ethic and philosophical propositions subject to debate.
Hell bent...........
Indeed comical almost to a tear. Sadly....a 'god' who committs soul's to eternal hellfire to suffer TO NO END.... reflects a most diabolical deity if he could be called a deity. All else in this equation is a matter of principle, morals, ethic and philosophical propositions subject to debate.
Very often men reap what other people sow.
Only the Lord can make things right, and I am looking forward to that day.(Especially the healing of any damage I have done, and I have)
Love covers a multitude of sins, so it is that often people even now do not reap all that they sow.
I do not think many know what love is.
God is Spirit, God is love, the witness of being saved is that Gods love is in ones own life, and it is not religion or a stack of beliefs.
LA
Rosenritter
New member
I approve of this post.
Cross Reference
New member
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Romans 6:6 (KJV)
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Rosenritter
New member
No, seriously. Please comment.
So... here it is. I've been on a goose chase to figure out how the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) doctrine started and why it is perpetuated.
I don't believe all humanity that spans time will be salvaged, because I believe absolute wickedness exists in the world. Wickedness is most easily identified with one word... HATE. What am I getting at? Well, I'm suggesting that there will be a number that do not inherit "Eternal Life".
This goes to the next point along this cause and effect... "The Eternal Soul". There is this idea that our souls are so eternal that we cannot cease. There is an instant issue to this belief...
Spoiler
So... now we are faced with a giant issue. Most of Christendom believes in eternal torment of some fashion, but most of Christianity views Jesus as a "Christian". Well... nope! He was a Jew! He was a mega-Jew... Rabbi.. to be exact. Yup... This brings to light that when Jesus spoke and the authors of the 27 book NT spoke... they assumed the words would be understood by Jews!
All you need is Jesus! Fact.
But if you are a curious person like most persons... you want to know more! So we embark on theological journeys. There's over 30,000 name brands of Jesus theology that you can buy at your local Church-Mart.
However... I'm always over asserting 1 John 2:27 as the reason that we can take the ingredients of life to understand whatever God desires us to understand. Throw 39 books of the OT into the fuel tank of that Journey and you've got yourself a nice cheat sheet to peer into spiritual mysteries. If you go ahead and throw the 27 books of the NT in that fuel tank... you'll rapidly find that a lifetime isn't long enough to understand all spiritual mysteries.
So... back to Jesus being a Super Jew... Heck... King of the Jews... he knew that the Greek understanding of death was similar to Sheol... or the realm of the dead... The Greeks and Romans understood this as Hell. He also knew that Hell was a form of soul destruction and a home of the wicked to the Greco-Romans, thus the term Hinnom or Gehenna was sort of replaced with translation and quotation of the word "Hell".
Ever read Dante's Inferno? 14th century.
Destruction of the wicked happened at the feet of Messiah in the OT. He does this at the restoration of Israel. When Jesus came and didn't "restore" Israel as a warrior like David... much of Israel rejected Him. Ofcoarse... any Christian that cares about finding Jesus, the Loving Messiah that takes our sin away,... knows they can drudge up an epic amount of Jesus prophecies.
Unfortunately, many don't realize that the OT paints a different picture of the Eastern Jesus than the West wants to know. Destruction is final by the Old Testament, but between Jesus Allegory and Super Allegorical Revelation... we can easily see Hell as a place of "Eternal Suffering".
Why ECT is prevalent... It was a teaching of the Mother Church. Purgatory was another variant or parallel that suggested we all pay penance for our sins until we're Heaven worthy. Bottom line? It helped the Mother Churche$ bottom line. You could Pay money to get little Timmy into Heaven quicker, even though he pulled little Susie's Pony tail and kicked the family dog.
Another reason is that people want people to suffer for the bad things they have done. Let's create an example of this. We'll call him Ned. Ned is a Serial Murderer Pedophile that finally dies. It just feels good to know that Ned is in Hell with Pin Head from Hell Raiser having his flesh burned and carved like a thanksgiving day Turkey for eternity.
Dogma is the last big reason ECT is alive. Fear that contesting dogma can cause a straight ticket to Hell has perpetrated Hell.
So what does this mean?
It means we all need to put our collective heads together... peal back the dogma, human hate and physical church power... and seek the core implications of scripture...
Derf
Well-known member
Hi EE.
You use "Mother Church" pejoratively. Can you explain what you mean by "Mother Church"? Pejoratives are meant to get a head start on an argument--to disparage the view by associating it with something bad.
If "Mother Church" was only interested in the financial gain of ECT, then it seems like it would not have been brought up until there were enough people already in the church to make it effective as a threat. And then they might lose people from the church so that the financial benefits wouldn't have been fully realized.
Here's a web site that is presenting church fathers' views of ECT as early as AD 110. Does that count as "Mother Church"?
The guy that does the website (rightly or wrongly) thinks that those that oppose ECT do it for a similar reason that you say "Mother Church" promoted it--that doing so will bring in more followers, which can reasonably be thought of as a way to bring more dollars into the coffers. So the financial aspect seems to be moot.
Respectfully,
Derf
P.S. I think the purgatory thing is a red herring--bringing it up here detracts from the full discussion about eternal conscious torment, since purgatory did not deal with the eternal aspect--it was a temporary situation, if it was anything at all.
Hi Derf,
Fair enough... I speak of the "Mother Church" as the Romanized Church that adapted rapidly to quell the fall of the Roman Government in the face of the Growth of "Pauline Christianity".
Obviously, I speak of the Roman Catholic (Universal) church in this matter. Note that Christ warned that "many would come in His name" and writings like Augustine corrupted the pot of doctrine from a very early time that had barely finished enunciating the Ascension of Jesus in the book of "Acts".
My first question to you is if you believe in the importance of National Israel to God and if you believe that the book of Revelation is predominately to the Jews.
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Derf
Well-known member
Wow!, what an awkward time for a sentence fragment! You got me on the edge of my chair here!
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Wow!, what an awkward time for a sentence fragment! You got me on the edge of my chair here!
All scripture is perfect as it's Author is "Perfect". It compliments itself in a Divine way that only the very work of God could. It seems an awkward question and "sentence fragment", but the two matters go hand in hand.
I ask you if you study on these matters to lead my direction of discussion.
Are you aware of the scriptural implications of "Hinnom Valley"?
I'm trying to zero in on a ground to start biblical discussion with you.
Derf
Well-known member
My mistake, sorry. I read your sentence with the "ifs" beginning the thought rather than ending it.
Regarding Hinnom Valley, I'm assuming you are refering to some "implications" that are the result of a particular doctrinal bent. Go ahead and explain.
And please allow me to answer your previous post better:
Then it doesn't seem like the earlier church fathers would be amenable to your opinion, if they indeed preached ECT of some sort.
Despite the definition of "catholic", or maybe because of it, "Roman Catholic" is a decided oxymoron. Augustine came after those fathers the website quoted. So if he's the culprit, what do you do about those other guys?
Yes, and possibly (somewhat undecided). If by "to the Jews" you mean that nobody else can understand what is written therein and nobody else should be doing anything with the words of Revelation, I would question your interpretation (because of [Rev 1:3] 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.). If by "to the Jews" you mean that none of the passages that talk of lake of fire and second death apply to anyone but the Jews, I would question your interpretation (since I don't think "Satan" is a Jew). If you include the first 3 chapters in your "predominantly", I would question your interpretation. If you include the last 3 chapters in your "predominantly", I would question your interpretation.
In fact, based on [Rev 22:16 ] "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." I'm thinking it isn't written predominantly TO the Jews, though some of it might be written ABOUT the Jews.
But that's ok. Go ahead and explain your position.
My full posture is that any extra scriptural writing is simply discussion amongst believers for the sharpening of iron.
As for Israel... this is a good matter. You reject the replacement doctrine... and... this is fantastic!
You are correct about Revelation and note... I used the word "predominantly"... so we are on track.
I will drop a bread crumb and if you feel that the effort is lacking... and wish that I just blurt my full opinion on the matter... I will. But... here comes the bread crumb.
What does the Old Testament reveal about the coming of Jesus and who is He coming to?
Hint at my direction of discussion... Those of the air in the book of Revelation 19:18 seem to paint a different picture of the "wedding feast" then we would have pictured as it was layed out in the parables of Jesus.
Derf
Well-known member
Sure, but you brought up Augustine in a negative light regarding ECT. He's apparently neither the only nor the earliest source of that position among Christians.
I don't want to go too far offtrack from the thread topic, but I trust you'll bring it back around.
I'm not sure I can answer the first half of your question without reiterating the whole Old Testament, so maybe you can give me a hint of what you are looking for. Regarding the second question, depends on what he's coming for. He comes to both believers and non-believers, but for different purposes. He was to be the salvation of the Jews and light to Gentiles (Is 42:6). But enemies would be trampled in His coming (thus the red-stained clothing in Rev 19) in Psa 45:5.
I would be careful about claiming that the two suppers in Rev 19 refer to the same thing.
Hi Derf,
It seems off track and I understand your concerns. Hmmmmmmm..... You are on the money about the trampling and thus we are actually on track. Have you ever wondered how those "who pierced Him" will "see Him" at His second coming?
Revelation flows into this matter and makes it clear that "Every Eye" shall see Him. Revelation reveals "how" this will happen. "Sheol" will be "emptied out". This is enormous and brings further scope to the matter.
When Christ comes... Israel will be under attack on a mass scale. We know this because of Christ's words in the book of Luke. (Luke 21:20) ... This is where we begin to see events that will lead to this... (1 Thes. 4:17) ... though we know that the days will be "shortened" or else no flesh will be "spared".
The big aha scriptures for me that give a deep insight into what I am "perceiving" are found when comparing these two passages...
Revelation 9:1-12 and Joel 2 ... The common error in western eschatology is to assume that the Revelation 9 locusts are "wicked"... but they are far from it. Note the use of the word... "Destroyer" or Abbadon... and note who has the key... to death... (Rev. 20:1)
The devil has been destroying since Eden, but now the tables are turned. The reference to "The king" of the army is odd... but... and I'll even throw this in for kicks... (The king of the angel army that is holding the "key"... could be none other then "David".) We know that the "Davidic" covenant still has points that can only be fully fulfilled by "The Day of The Lord".
This is my last point... I will express that I'm going a little deeper then I am usually comfortable going... but I have searched from Gen. to Rev. on this matter multiple times and the same outcome is there.
I'll pitch in this last verse... (Mt. 10:28)
I acknowledge that this is mere perspective, but the Lord of the Hosts is allowed to appoint "Generals" and such... so... I'm certain that you will at least be able to perceive my logic.
I believe in the supreme grace of Jesus, but He isn't coming back a Lamb, and I believe that many "Souls" will perish before the "Great White Throne", which is actually a reference to this... (Zech. 14:2)
I'll put it this way... God doesn't have a simple "Throne"... He has an entire "Nation" as His "Great White Throne". I'm specifying Israel.
In other words... people miss the rhythm and rhyme of the Old and New Testament and forget what the Jews were promised that hasn't happened yet.
I acknowledge that this is a mere "perspective", but if you're still interested... I will gladly go back on this scriptural journey with you all through scripture.
It always ends the same way and Hinnom Valley is very important to this point as it is the actual origin of the word we have now come to "embrace" as "Hell". Jesus certainly knew this as He and His audience understood Jewish Prophecy... ahem... some of His audience understood it. Others clearly missed the "first" "boat".
- EE
(Malachi 4:1f) ... This is why I take biblical Zionism so seriously.