Right, by not receiving eternal life!
They aren't kept alive forever being tortured in hell, they would need to have eternal life in order to be alive forever in hell. There is no eternal life outside of Christ.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Right, by not receiving eternal life!
They aren't kept alive forever being tortured in hell, they would need to have eternal life in order to be alive forever in hell. There is no eternal life outside of Christ.
Aimiel
Well-known member
There is no end to their suffering, by the Word of God. That, I believe. That makes one of us.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
That verse doesn't say that there is no end to their suffering.
The wicked will perish, the Word of God says so, that's what I believe.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish: Though the LORD's enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.
everready
New member
Annihilation: For what saith the Scripture?
Annihilation: For what saith the Scripture?
Annihilation: For what saith the Scripture?
There is an old teaching which has begun to spring up in the Christian community under the guise of "that’s not my God." That teaching is annihilation. Basically it states that when God will judge the unbeliever at the last day at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20, they will be destroyed completely or annihilated.
This means there will be no eternal punishment for their sins. It means after they are found guilty, they will cease to exist. A person, who believed in this teaching, stated that the bodies will burn forever but they will be dead bodies without any knowledge of punishment. We will see if that statement is correct by doing a scripture search.
http://www.scionofzion.com/annihilation.htm
everready
Annihilation: For what saith the Scripture?
Annihilation: For what saith the Scripture?
There is an old teaching which has begun to spring up in the Christian community under the guise of "that’s not my God." That teaching is annihilation. Basically it states that when God will judge the unbeliever at the last day at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20, they will be destroyed completely or annihilated.
This means there will be no eternal punishment for their sins. It means after they are found guilty, they will cease to exist. A person, who believed in this teaching, stated that the bodies will burn forever but they will be dead bodies without any knowledge of punishment. We will see if that statement is correct by doing a scripture search.
http://www.scionofzion.com/annihilation.htm
everready
Aimiel
Well-known member
Actually, it does, if you use logic correctly.
Perishing and existing no more are different concepts.
There can be no end to torment if the smoke coming from their torment ascends for ever and ever. Think about it. :think:
You forget that this death was to be eternal, so it is described in terms of never ending. But the word used for the most part for the burning place is Gehenna which refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation were thrown there to be destroyed or consumed. So Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment and destruction for the wicked after the resurrection, but the wicked are consumed. But God will never ever bring them back, thus it is eternal death...
According to the Bible, the wicked will be destroyed. There is no verse in the Bible that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented or tortured alive forever.
Since the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed, that is what "Annihilationists" believe. I believe that there is only eternal life in Christ and nowhere else. The wicked will be destroyed, this is their eternal punishment. They will not have eternal life, they will remain dead forever. This is their eternal punishment.
The everlasting fire is what destroys the wicked. Of course there is a need for it otherwise the wicked would not be destroyed, and the Bible clearly states that the wicked will be destroyed.
:duh: yourself.
This post doesn't make any sense. Are you claiming that the wicked will not be destroyed as the Bible says?
Aimiel
Well-known member
The ones being tormented for eternity in Revelation 14:11 are perishing. They perish for ever.
Aimiel
Well-known member
How can I 'forget' what isn't stated in Scripture? Where do you see 'eternal death' in The Bible?
Enoch wrote of it. That was before the flood. Long before Jerusalem existed.
Jesus didn't use it as a metaphor. He said we would be better off without limbs than entering hell ambulatory. Please guess again.
OCTOBER23
New member
Timotheos,
Yes , that is only Temporary until God brings them all back to life and judges them.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
Just think about it . If you were in that number of millions of people and you came face to face with God and his Elect and the Angels, would you still be angry with God or would you fall on your face and Beg For Mercy and a Second Chance ?????????
Yes , that is only Temporary until God brings them all back to life and judges them.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
Just think about it . If you were in that number of millions of people and you came face to face with God and his Elect and the Angels, would you still be angry with God or would you fall on your face and Beg For Mercy and a Second Chance ?????????
They perish forever? But never get around to actually perishing? Don't you see that you are changing definitions to fit your preferred doctrine?
Perish
: to die or be killed
: to disappear or be destroyed : to cease to exist
: to slowly break apart by a natural process
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perish
There is no way that someone who has perished will remain conscious forever.
Rev 20:13 describes judgment day. It is too late for second chances then.
Aimiel
Well-known member
So you say... God says different. He says the fire never ceases and the worms don't die. He said that the torment of sinners is eternal. Believe Him.
I believe God. I do not believe what you claim God says.
1. The fire burns dead bodies, not living souls. Read Isaiah 66:24
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
2. The worms eat dead bodies, not living souls. Read Isaiah 66:243. God did NOT say that the torment of sinners is eternal.
4. God DID that sinners will be destroyed, read Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.
5. I don't say that perish means to die or be killed, the DICTIONARY says that.there will be no future for the wicked.
God says that sinners will be destroyed. Believe Him.
Livelystone
New member
On the surface there is a significant amount of support for the doctrine of eternal torment. And God did use extreme physical discomfort in his forms of punishment for certain crimes.
The whip that was used for a maximum of 40 lashes was one nasty little instrument for inflicting tremendous pain that could correctly be called torture. These whips were designed with knots and streamers that would literally fillet the flesh off of the back of the person being whipped.
So much for the bad news
On the other hand the word in the original languages that was translated as "eternity," lost a lot of it's meaning during the translation process. What the word really means is “an age” that has both a beginning and an end to it. in other words God never prescribed a punishment of pain for anyone that did not end when the sentence was filled by the offender
This goes hand-in-hand with the purpose of God's law that had maximum limits set to the sentence and when the person had fulfilled their sentence they could return to society with all the rights and privileges normally associated with persons in good standing.
Jesus Himself taught this same principal,
Matt. 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Other than repenting from threats to punish or destroy the offenders God does not change. God's law is a “fiery law” whose purpose is to burn off what is unacceptable about a person. This is something else that Jesus taught when he compared people in the fire as being the same as the dump outside of Jerusalem where the fires burn continuously. However, the reason why they continued to burn was there was a continuous source of fuel being added daily that caused the fire to continue to burn.
On the other hand had the fuel been exhausted the fire would've gone out. The implication is quite clear that if a person was “burning in hell” there was a set time limit that would not end before the person had been through the fires of correction and they had done what they were designed to do.
Paul also taught this,
Here Paul is speaking of Christians who has some chaff and some stubble that needed to be removed before the person could become fully sanctified.
1Corr. 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
In the above verses Paul is saying that someone who adds doctrines on top of the foundation of Christ that are not true (and are a sin) their mind needs to be purified and it will be purified. However, the purpose behind the fire is good even though it is a painful process to endure.
This was the purpose of the fire seen on the heads of the apostles and disciples that was the Holy Spirit given on Pentecost that was to prepare them to be able to receive the fulness of God in their hearts. Fire is a purifying fire the same as God's law is a fiery law. Much better to “be saved by fire” in this life through whatever fire God comes up with in order to get someone to worship in spirit and in truth.
Jesus also spoke of servants in the next life who knew their father's will for them but did not do it would be receiving multiple lashes but the person who did not know their fathers will was not punished as severely. In case you missed it these are Christians being whipped in the next life for not doing what they should have done in this life
The 2nd covenant is a better covenant simply because one way or the other people are going to be made acceptable to God through the cleansing of the fires that are for the purpose of purifying albeit the time spent in the fire will be very painful.
The whip that was used for a maximum of 40 lashes was one nasty little instrument for inflicting tremendous pain that could correctly be called torture. These whips were designed with knots and streamers that would literally fillet the flesh off of the back of the person being whipped.
So much for the bad news
On the other hand the word in the original languages that was translated as "eternity," lost a lot of it's meaning during the translation process. What the word really means is “an age” that has both a beginning and an end to it. in other words God never prescribed a punishment of pain for anyone that did not end when the sentence was filled by the offender
This goes hand-in-hand with the purpose of God's law that had maximum limits set to the sentence and when the person had fulfilled their sentence they could return to society with all the rights and privileges normally associated with persons in good standing.
Jesus Himself taught this same principal,
Matt. 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
Other than repenting from threats to punish or destroy the offenders God does not change. God's law is a “fiery law” whose purpose is to burn off what is unacceptable about a person. This is something else that Jesus taught when he compared people in the fire as being the same as the dump outside of Jerusalem where the fires burn continuously. However, the reason why they continued to burn was there was a continuous source of fuel being added daily that caused the fire to continue to burn.
On the other hand had the fuel been exhausted the fire would've gone out. The implication is quite clear that if a person was “burning in hell” there was a set time limit that would not end before the person had been through the fires of correction and they had done what they were designed to do.
Paul also taught this,
Here Paul is speaking of Christians who has some chaff and some stubble that needed to be removed before the person could become fully sanctified.
1Corr. 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
In the above verses Paul is saying that someone who adds doctrines on top of the foundation of Christ that are not true (and are a sin) their mind needs to be purified and it will be purified. However, the purpose behind the fire is good even though it is a painful process to endure.
This was the purpose of the fire seen on the heads of the apostles and disciples that was the Holy Spirit given on Pentecost that was to prepare them to be able to receive the fulness of God in their hearts. Fire is a purifying fire the same as God's law is a fiery law. Much better to “be saved by fire” in this life through whatever fire God comes up with in order to get someone to worship in spirit and in truth.
Jesus also spoke of servants in the next life who knew their father's will for them but did not do it would be receiving multiple lashes but the person who did not know their fathers will was not punished as severely. In case you missed it these are Christians being whipped in the next life for not doing what they should have done in this life
The 2nd covenant is a better covenant simply because one way or the other people are going to be made acceptable to God through the cleansing of the fires that are for the purpose of purifying albeit the time spent in the fire will be very painful.
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.