Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Because these are the words Scripture uses. Hell/lake of fire is not a medieval torture chamber, but a place of selfishness, rebellion, separation from God.
Tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev.) is very strong Greek language for everlasting, conscious separation from God.
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A person can leave their body in their spirit and not be dead.
However, their body would be nonresponsive.
The spirit does not die. That is what the scriptures say.
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
That scripture is saying that men cannot kill the body with the spirit (which together is a soul), but they can kill the body.
A spirit can see, move, talk, think, and feel emotions.
You are speaking as one who will not accept what the scriptures say about the spirit. The scriptures even speak of ghosts/spirits.
Jesus does not rebuke his disciples for thinking he was a spirit. Jesus tells them that a ghost does not have flesh and bones.
So then, you see it is not as you say. A spirit does not need a body to exist.
Luke 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
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I have given you scripture that says man cannot kill the body with the spirit.
Tell me, do you believe Jesus is God come in the flesh?
You are wrong, for their body can be dead, but still live in the spirit.
Because of sin, our bodies die. We are going to have our bodies redeemed. That does not mean our spirits are not living. It does not even make sense to say that since we die physically it means we are not alive spiritual.
You are the one who denies everything
You do not have any knowledge and understanding about what is spiritual, nothing at all.
Jesus does not even seem concerned about the death of our bodies…he even says they are sleeping. What Jesus shows the most concern over is our spirits. Now, if a person is in darkness, Jesus says they are ‘dead’, even though they live. You need to think about that more.
Are you saying Jesus didn't die?
sounds like astral travel to me, weird anyway.
If the Bible says that people go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead, could someone PLEASE give the verse that says this?
Until you do (GT), I will continue to believe what the Bible says. "Whoever believes in Him shall not PERISH, but will have eternal life."
Until you do (GT), I will continue to believe what the Bible says. "Whoever believes in Him shall not PERISH, but will have eternal life."
The bible doesn't say dead people will be tortured forever, sorry.
Thanks, that's what I thought. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (Revelation 3:19)
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (Revelation 3:19)
Christ's correction is intended to be everlasting, recidivism is not an option.
physical death and spiritual death are not the same thing. The bible doesn't say dead flesh bodies will be eternally separated, it says the spirit will be.
You know what i think about this, and if the lake of fire is not eternal, neither is there eternal life, since the same word is used in both descriptions, i know you dont like or want to hear that but its the truth.
If you could supply the Bible verse that says "Physical death and spiritual death are not the same thing", that would be helpful. I believe the lake of fire is eternal. I also believe what the Book of Revelation says the lake of fire is. "The lake of fire is the second death".
I like to hear the truth and I want to hear it, and I like to see the truth backed up by scripture because a lot of people say things, and they aren't all true. But I know that the Bible is true. So if a person says "the lost are tormented in hell forever when they die", I insist on seeing the Bible verse that says that. If a person says "Physical death and Spiritual death are not the same thing", I insist on seeing a Bible verse that says that. All I see are assumptions based on belief in eternal conscious torment with no scriptural backing.
Here is what the Bible says:
The wicked will perish. (Doesn't say "spiritual" or "physical")
The wicked will be no more. (This blows the theory out of the water that the wicked will remain in hell, the lake of fire or anywhere else being tortured or tormented.)
The wages of sin is death. (Clear and straightforward description of the fate of the lost)
Whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life. (Clearly states the two possible outcomes)
The lost perish, they aren't tormented or tortured in hell forever. All I am saying is what the Bible says. I know that nobody wants to hear this, but it is the truth according to the Bible.
God's Truth
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I have already given you scriptures that prove what I say, but you keep saying you did not see them. You are willfully blind.
Matthew 25:46 does not say that the lost are tormented or tortured alive forever in hell.
I'm sorry, but it simply does not say that. Here is what it says "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
I believe this verse. This verse doesn't say what the eternal punishment is. If you go by this verse alone, you can't say whether the eternal punishment is eternal torture in hell or if the eternal punishment is to be dead forever. Both of these are eternal punishments. But only one of these is said by the Bible to be the wages of sin. We know from reading Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death.
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
If you put these 2 verses together, it is obvious that the eternal punishment is death, not eternal torture.
God's Truth
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Jesus died physically.
His Spirit did not die. In fact, he went to the spirits in prison, of those who died long ago, and preached the gospel there.
God's Truth
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You call Apostle Paul weird.
2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.
Seriously? You really posted a verse that says "People go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead".
I didn't see it. Could you please post that verse again? I'm sure that you would be happy to, since that verse proves that you are correct. I just would like to read that verse for myself.
I am not willfully blind. I just don't believe the bible says "people go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead". You are willfully seeing things that are not there. But if I am wrong post the verse. If you can't post the verse, please stop insulting me for not seeing what isn't there.
God's Truth
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I have already posted the scriptures many times, and you keep saying you did not see them.
If you are not willfully blind, then the devil has ensnared you to do his will.
In that case, humble yourself and repent.
You did not post any scripture that says "People go to hell when they die where they are tortured alive forever while they are dead". The reason I know this is because there is NO VERSE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS THAT.
It is offensive for a Christian to say to another Christian that they are "willfully blind" and "ensnared by the devil".
Why don't you just admit that there is no verse that says that and you didn't post any verse that says that?