Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Life and death are mutually exclusive. A person has one or the other.
Eternal judgment is one of the basics of Christian teachings.
Death is not another form of life, death is the cessation of life. Those who are dead are not aware that they are dead.
I agree.
God's Truth
New member
I know what scripture you were referencing.
God so loved the world is about people in general. God does not even know you unless you love Him by obeying.
Would you like the scriptures again?
We have to believe in Jesus to be saved. However, that is not all we have to do. We have to have living faith. Living faith is faith with obedience.
Would you like the scriptures again?
All you are doing is repeating yourself and acting as if I did not already explain all this before.
All the scriptures that tell us we have to believe to be saved---they do not nullify the scriptures that say we have to obey.
Our spirits do not die when our physical body dies. I have given you scriptures that prove that.
That's true. Humans are made up of body and spirit. Death is the separation of body and spirit. The inert spirit returns to God and the body decays into basic elements.
God retains the spirit to combine with another brain at the resurrection when the person will live again unaware of having experienced death.
God's Truth
New member
I am glad that we agree on some points. However, I do not know how you think the person will lie again unaware of having experienced death.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
the law of justice, and the love that ultimately wins......
the law of justice, and the love that ultimately wins......
Very good, since the 'law of justice' or 'law of compensation' is a universal law, see my last post here. For the sake of brevity we simply refer to it as 'karma' ('action' and its accompanying consequences/effects).
We would also note that this law executes itself in perfect proportion, no more or no less, according to the transgression itself, measure for measure (degree, quality, quantity, etc.), and in that way it is 'perfect' (in operation) as far as 'sowing & reaping' is concerned. - hence one can only suffer for his own sins, as long as that sin continues to be engaged, thus reaping the harvest for such actions, but can be absolved or mediated when the sin is no longer engaged in, the soul making reparation (atonement) for that sin, thus no longer suffering the penalty thereof. This is one reason that ECT is problematic, since it imposes an eternal penality of endless torment for temporal sins, to which there is no more atonement available, verging on 'over-kill' (since these souls are supposedly condemned to stay in that state for ever and ever, to no end (senseless duration to no effect). - such a 'judgment' gives no glory to 'God', but could only make demons and devils revel and gloat.
We've exposed the insanity of ECT here and previous sharings. There is more involved here than just a literal reading of a few passages from a book on the subject (assumed at face value, when original word-meanings convey a different meaning as in the case of 'aion' meaning for an indefinite period of time, not an eternal duration), not to mention that psychical research, NDEs and afterlife studies reveal a more balanced and logical presentation of what happens when we die, and what factors affect or condition our location and destiny in the afterlife.
~*~*~
Hell, and the Near death experience
~*~*~
I might note that NDE's and many spirit-communications support a 'universalist view of salvation' for all souls by the law of progress and the infinite power and availability of LOVE to ultimately draw and guide all souls Godward. Therefore 'life' and 'death' are but relative 'terms' in the soul's progress towards purification and perfection.
pj
the law of justice, and the love that ultimately wins......
Very good, since the 'law of justice' or 'law of compensation' is a universal law, see my last post here. For the sake of brevity we simply refer to it as 'karma' ('action' and its accompanying consequences/effects).
We would also note that this law executes itself in perfect proportion, no more or no less, according to the transgression itself, measure for measure (degree, quality, quantity, etc.), and in that way it is 'perfect' (in operation) as far as 'sowing & reaping' is concerned. - hence one can only suffer for his own sins, as long as that sin continues to be engaged, thus reaping the harvest for such actions, but can be absolved or mediated when the sin is no longer engaged in, the soul making reparation (atonement) for that sin, thus no longer suffering the penalty thereof. This is one reason that ECT is problematic, since it imposes an eternal penality of endless torment for temporal sins, to which there is no more atonement available, verging on 'over-kill' (since these souls are supposedly condemned to stay in that state for ever and ever, to no end (senseless duration to no effect). - such a 'judgment' gives no glory to 'God', but could only make demons and devils revel and gloat.
We've exposed the insanity of ECT here and previous sharings. There is more involved here than just a literal reading of a few passages from a book on the subject (assumed at face value, when original word-meanings convey a different meaning as in the case of 'aion' meaning for an indefinite period of time, not an eternal duration), not to mention that psychical research, NDEs and afterlife studies reveal a more balanced and logical presentation of what happens when we die, and what factors affect or condition our location and destiny in the afterlife.
~*~*~
Hell, and the Near death experience
~*~*~
I might note that NDE's and many spirit-communications support a 'universalist view of salvation' for all souls by the law of progress and the infinite power and availability of LOVE to ultimately draw and guide all souls Godward. Therefore 'life' and 'death' are but relative 'terms' in the soul's progress towards purification and perfection.
pj
Death is the separation of body and spirit. Without a body there are no inputs to feed information to the brain and spirit. There is no optical or audible information to process. There is no sense of touch or smell or taste.
God created the brain to process information but the brain of a dead person is nonfunctional, no information can be input or processed until God provides a new brain at the resurrection. The person's spirit will join with the new brain and the person will live again with no awareness of the time out.
You haven't shown a scripture that actually says "Our spirits do not die when our physical body dies". According to the Ezekiel 18:4 the soul actually does die. "The soul who sins shall die".
Death is when the person is no longer alive. If the person is alive, then they are not dead. If they are dead, they are not alive. If we have eternal life, then we are alive forever. If a person does not have eternal life, then they can't have eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever. Those who do not receive eternal life from Christ do not receive eternal life from Christ, so they don't have eternal life in Hell being tortured alive forever. I don't know why you can't understand these clear and simple facts.
The Bible says plain and clear "The wages of sin is death". That is God's truth.
Since you don't believe God's truth, and you believe that the wages of sin is to be tortured alive forever in hell, why don't you simply post the verse that says "The wages of sin is to be tortured alive in hell forever"? Wouldn't that be simpler than arguing?
amen
The upshot of this lying doctrine is to say to the wicked man "go in peace, it will be well with you"
It is the same voice as the voice in the Garden which said "hath God said you will die? you will not die" strengthening Adam's resolve to sin.
But man did die, he is dead while he walks...God warns of a second death...."they will depart into eternal punishment"
And they will fully deserve to, they conspired with the devil they murdered, they will be punished with him.
If the punishment is not eternal then salvation is not eternal for it is the same word.
It is the same voice as the voice in the Garden which said "hath God said you will die? you will not die" strengthening Adam's resolve to sin.
But man did die, he is dead while he walks...God warns of a second death...."they will depart into eternal punishment"
And they will fully deserve to, they conspired with the devil they murdered, they will be punished with him.
If the punishment is not eternal then salvation is not eternal for it is the same word.
Thank you Totton. Can you please explain to me how saying "The Bible says in Psalm 37:20 that the wicked will perish" is to say to the wicked man "go in peace, it will be well with you"?
I'm unclear how perishing is "it is well with you".
I look forward to hearing your explanation of how destruction is actually a very good thing.
(While you are at it, could you explain how "black" is actually "white"? Thanks ever so much!)
Because the wicked do not believe or fear an afterlife or a bringing to account. The Holy Spirit will never witness to a lie, He can and witness to the truth, He works with us to confirm our word, or His word through us...He will never work through a lie.
He is well able to witness the truth that there is an afterlife and ther is a bringing to account and many have been saved as a result.
See the "enlightenment" so called arose in Germany when these fundamental truths were denied and so arose the the generation which produced two world wars and the holocaust.
The bible teaches [the Lord PERSONALLY] teaches that the dead will be raised to be judged, some to an eternal inheritance some to eternal punishment, they will depart into eternal punishment.
I do not rejoice or relish it, but I dare not deny it.
I like to announce GOOD news.
We say "the wicked are destroyed". You say that is saying "Go in peace, it is well with you". So in your mind, being destroyed is a good thing? The Holy Spirit never works through a lie, the lie is that being destroyed is a good thing. You should rethink this bizarre teaching.
You can't just slither around God's word. One scripture here does not negate another scripture elsewhere.
Slither? Why are you like this? Does God tell you to insult me?
Of course I don't believe that one scripture negates another scripture. Scripture says that the wages of sin is death (see Romans 6:23). There is no scripture that says the lost go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead.