If Jamie is addressing me, I want her to know that she's on my permanent Ignore list.
IS M.A.D. DOCTRINE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?
- Thread starter Grosnick Marowbe
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dodge
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Morning Jamie, scripture says both "adopted" and " born of the Spirit".
heir
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Paul's first sending was a dispensation of the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:17 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) to the Jew first and also to the Greek during the time of promise in Acts (Acts 13:16 KJV, Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV). By the close of Acts, the remnant was gathered into the Body and the far hence sending of Paul (a due time all men inclusion (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV), to even Gentiles such as we (Acts 22:17-21 KJV, Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV), given the dispensation of the grace of God to usward (Ephesians 3:1-2 KJV) to testify the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) ensued (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV).
The Hebrews Christ rescued from Egypt were adopted because they were not born of the Spirit. To be born of the Spirit first requires conception by the Spirit. Those conceived by the Spirit must grow and develop the Father's nature through Jesus Christ, his express image.
We follow Christ into his kingdom, the family of God.
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In Ephesians 2:11-13 NET Paul told the congregation, "Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh — who are called “uncircumcision” by the so-called “circumcision” that is performed on the body by human hands — that you were at that time without the Messiah, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who used to be far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ."
Now no one is alienated from citizenship of Israel nor strangers to the covenants of promise.
Paul explained to a different congregation, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29 NET)
What is the promise Paul referred to?
"That in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith." Galatians 3:14 NET)
Now no one is alienated from citizenship of Israel nor strangers to the covenants of promise.
Paul explained to a different congregation, "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29 NET)
What is the promise Paul referred to?
"That in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit by faith." Galatians 3:14 NET)
If, per chance, anybody that's on my Permanent Ignore List (Or, as I say in the old country: "EGGNORE") has a serious and civil question, feel free to PM me and I'll attempt to answer whatever you ask. However, it needs to remain civil.
I tend to treat posters/people the way they treat me. The Bible says in Romans 12:18 "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." I interpret this to mean, it's not always possible. It also appears to be saying, the outcome has to do with our personal, ability/temperament to get along when it says: "as much as lieth in you,"
"For example; sometimes some of the writers are speaking to the House of Israel and things relating only to them. Other times the writer is speaking to things pertaining only to the Gentiles. "
For Christian Zionists,Israel, or the House of Israel, must always mean Old Covenant Israel,.
The implication then,is that Israel, for Christian Zionists, must always refer to those of the physical bloodline from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.
And - in Galatians 6:16 the Israel of God, for Christian Zionists, must refer only to those of the physical bloodline, though they may admit this refers to those of the bloodline who are saved.
And in Romans 9: 6-8, "the children of the promise" are those of the bloodline who are saved,and does not include non-Jews who are saved. But here in Romans 9:6-8 we may see some Christian Zionists who do not agree Romans 9:6-8 refers only to saved Jews and not to saved non-Jews.
What about II Corinthians 3: 6-11?
"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9.For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10.For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11.For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Is he saying that the Old Covenant is the ministration of death and of condemnation and the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and of righteousness? And is the writer of Hebrews in Chapter 10, verse 9 talking about the Old Covenant being done away with so that he could establish the New Covenant? Is there a clear position of Christian Zionism on II Corinthians 3: 6-11 and on Hebrews 10:9?
What about Galatians 4: 25-26? "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Who are the people of Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all, saved people of all races or just saved Jews?
For Christian Zionists,Israel, or the House of Israel, must always mean Old Covenant Israel,.
The implication then,is that Israel, for Christian Zionists, must always refer to those of the physical bloodline from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.
And - in Galatians 6:16 the Israel of God, for Christian Zionists, must refer only to those of the physical bloodline, though they may admit this refers to those of the bloodline who are saved.
And in Romans 9: 6-8, "the children of the promise" are those of the bloodline who are saved,and does not include non-Jews who are saved. But here in Romans 9:6-8 we may see some Christian Zionists who do not agree Romans 9:6-8 refers only to saved Jews and not to saved non-Jews.
What about II Corinthians 3: 6-11?
"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9.For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10.For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11.For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Is he saying that the Old Covenant is the ministration of death and of condemnation and the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and of righteousness? And is the writer of Hebrews in Chapter 10, verse 9 talking about the Old Covenant being done away with so that he could establish the New Covenant? Is there a clear position of Christian Zionism on II Corinthians 3: 6-11 and on Hebrews 10:9?
What about Galatians 4: 25-26? "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." Who are the people of Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all, saved people of all races or just saved Jews?
It's sort of a "Reaping and Sowing" process. If you treat others with disrespect (name calling, etc) you can only expect the same from them. We usually treat people who are nice to us, nicely. On the other hand, those who treat us in an uncivil manner, we tend to reciprocate in like manner. My personality is such, that I won't draw "First blood" in any given conversation. However, if someone starts something with me, I'll return the favor. I suspect most posters/people are like-minded in that area of life?
I afford people I don't know the benefit of the fact that I don't know them and I treat them with the respect that I'd have them treat me with. After I get to know them, however, I treat people with the respect they've earned.
The people of Jacob heard the same gospel that was heard in the first century, but the gospel did them no good if it was not mixed with faith in those who heard it. (Hebrews 4:2 NET)
Salvation is explained as being by grace through faith. Grace was not extended to those who lacked faith.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9.Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2: 8
Pulling this one verse out of Ephesians 2: 4-17 can make salvation seem easy, and not requiring a transformation, which is necessary for salvation in John 3: 3-7. " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Paul talks about that change or transformation in several places,even in Ephesians 2:4-17, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" Ephesians 2: 15
Paul in II Corinthians 5:17 says "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Galatians 6:15
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12: 2
And -"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" Philippians 2: 5
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;.........Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Colossians 1: 21-27
Christ in you,or in you all,means he is somehow in each individual, not just "among" a group.
Christ in you begins that transformation of Romans 12: 2 to be one new man of Ephesians 2: 15 and new creature in II Corinthians 5:17 and Galatians 6:15.
And look at II Thessalonians 2:10-12: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousnes."
Go back and read all of Ephesians 2: 4-17. " But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"
"For example; sometimes some of the writers are speaking to the House of Israel and things relating only to them. Other times the writer is speaking to things pertaining only to the Gentiles. "
A fundamental doctrine of Christian Zionism is the separation of Old Covenant Israel from the Gentiles, called the Church. But Paul in Ephesians 2:14-16 says there is now (First Century A.D.) no middle wall of partition between saved Jews and saved Non-Jews, which he affirms in Romans 10: 12 and in Galatians 3: 28
Christian Zionism seems to imply that Old Covenant Israel still exists. If so, who are they? The people of the physical bloodline. Would not that be Talmudic Judaism? And is not Talmudic Judaism under influence from the religion of the Pharisees? OK,the Christian Zionists might agree, but they are still Israel,they might say. Yet no great effort by Christian Zionists to evangelize Talmudic Judaism, has been seen, or a great deal of success at it in isolated instances? The answer they would say is in Romans 11:25, that blindness in part is happened to Israel." Yes.but it says in part,which is usually seen to mean to a large part of that Israel,but not to all.
9.Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2: 8
Pulling this one verse out of Ephesians 2: 4-17 can make salvation seem easy, and not requiring a transformation, which is necessary for salvation in John 3: 3-7. " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Paul talks about that change or transformation in several places,even in Ephesians 2:4-17, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" Ephesians 2: 15
Paul in II Corinthians 5:17 says "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." Galatians 6:15
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12: 2
And -"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" Philippians 2: 5
"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;.........Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Colossians 1: 21-27
Christ in you,or in you all,means he is somehow in each individual, not just "among" a group.
Christ in you begins that transformation of Romans 12: 2 to be one new man of Ephesians 2: 15 and new creature in II Corinthians 5:17 and Galatians 6:15.
And look at II Thessalonians 2:10-12: "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousnes."
Go back and read all of Ephesians 2: 4-17. " But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"
"For example; sometimes some of the writers are speaking to the House of Israel and things relating only to them. Other times the writer is speaking to things pertaining only to the Gentiles. "
A fundamental doctrine of Christian Zionism is the separation of Old Covenant Israel from the Gentiles, called the Church. But Paul in Ephesians 2:14-16 says there is now (First Century A.D.) no middle wall of partition between saved Jews and saved Non-Jews, which he affirms in Romans 10: 12 and in Galatians 3: 28
Christian Zionism seems to imply that Old Covenant Israel still exists. If so, who are they? The people of the physical bloodline. Would not that be Talmudic Judaism? And is not Talmudic Judaism under influence from the religion of the Pharisees? OK,the Christian Zionists might agree, but they are still Israel,they might say. Yet no great effort by Christian Zionists to evangelize Talmudic Judaism, has been seen, or a great deal of success at it in isolated instances? The answer they would say is in Romans 11:25, that blindness in part is happened to Israel." Yes.but it says in part,which is usually seen to mean to a large part of that Israel,but not to all.
There are times when a "Newbie" will come on TOL and right away, out of the box, goes on the attack. How do you respond to those types?
Good morning to all MADs, Grace Gospel Believers, and Seekers of truth.
Same way I do everyone else. I make an argument. If they respond to the argument, they can be as combative as they want. I've got nice thick skin and don't mind it when people go a little nuts. I go nuts too sometimes (unfortunately).
The one's I cannot tolerate are those who knowingly blaspheme God (i.e. some of the Calvinists around here mostly) and those who prove to be just a complete waste of time and energy because they refuse to engage the debate. I do try to at least allow them to waste my time first before relegating them to the pile of debris that dodge currently occupies.
Also, I'm terrible, really just awful actually, with names and if I haven't seen someone post something for quite a while, I'll often forget that I've ever read a single post they've ever written and so people will often get several chances to waste my time before they land on my ignore list.
Good post
A tactic of the dialectic is to side step or ignore whatever cannot be effectively opposed in a few sentences.
Whats the dialectic? See the Greek in I Timothy 6:20-21, especially αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως,"anti-thesis of falsely called knowledge," implying the διαλεκτική, or dialectic, in Greek philosophy before Christ. And see Genesis 3:1-6 and John 8 for its use as a method of argument.
Whats the dialectic? See the Greek in I Timothy 6:20-21, especially αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως,"anti-thesis of falsely called knowledge," implying the διαλεκτική, or dialectic, in Greek philosophy before Christ. And see Genesis 3:1-6 and John 8 for its use as a method of argument.
Huh?? What has this to do with the thread? Please explain it's relevance?
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The Marxist version of the dialectic is type of argument against a "thesis," which can be an argument against scripture which is absolute truth. Christian Zionism, because it teaches a different set of doctrines than certain NT scriptures, makes an argument against that which is absolute truth. And often those who promote and defend this theology use the dialectic.
The guy who has taught on the Marxist version of the dialectic. Dean Gotcher, is not liked in the churches,partly because what he is saying is over their heads,and partly because they realize he is being critical of them. But Gotcher is a leader of the contemporary remnant,which, apparently,for Christian Zionists, does not exist..
The guy who has taught on the Marxist version of the dialectic. Dean Gotcher, is not liked in the churches,partly because what he is saying is over their heads,and partly because they realize he is being critical of them. But Gotcher is a leader of the contemporary remnant,which, apparently,for Christian Zionists, does not exist..
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