Is Jesus eternal?

[glorydaz]

Yes.

Revelation 1

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

That speaks of THE FATHER, Jehovah, whom Jesus said was "the only true God." (John 17:3)

:wave2: Hel-lo-o.

No...that is the Father, Jehovah, who is referred to there. The one that Jesus called "my God," (John 20:17; Rev.3:12) and "the only true God." (John 17:3)

Jehovah is "the Almighty."

Oh, then the Father was "he that liveth, and was dead...", too, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last? Funny how you JW's don't like to read all of Revelation 1. :chuckle:

Rev. 1:11a
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: ...

Revelation 1:17-18
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

 

[Caino]

The Creator Son "Christ Michael" had a beginning in eternity, he is ancestral to the Father, that's why he is a Son. But eternity as a concept is confused with time, time is nonexistent with the eternal God.

 

[Clete]

I voted yes but would point out that the eternal Logos', God the Son's BECAME Jesus at the incarnation. Just a technical distinction but worth mentioning because of the way the question is worded.

As for proof...

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


Philippians 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,


1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.​

He who denies the deity of Christ, denies Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

The Creator Son "Christ Michael" had a beginning in eternity, he is ancestral to the Father, that's why he is a Son. But eternity as a concept is confused with time, time is nonexistent with the eternal God.

Time is non-existent - period.

Ontologically speaking, that is. In other words, time is an idea, not a thing with its own ontological existence. Time is simply a concept, a convention of language by which information concerning duration and sequence is conveyed.

God has always existed, including God the Son (see passages cited in previous post).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Zeke]

The Creator Son "Christ Michael" had a beginning in eternity, he is ancestral to the Father, that's why he is a Son. But eternity as a concept is confused with time, time is nonexistent with the eternal God.

Seeing the story was plagiarized from past father son motifs, the son gives birth to the father John 14:17 in type of the two births Genesis 4:1-2 concept Galatians 1:12 John 1:9 being the elemental Divine Spark likened to a Seed that lies dormant in a field/flesh that awakens to new life John 12:24, both are one with dual paths metaphorically until reconciliation like Jacob (after becoming Israel) was reunited with his sibling Genesis 33:4, in peace and grace .

 

[Nick M]

No...that is the Father, Jehovah, who is referred to there.

If that were so, he would have said so.


8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

 

[Bright Raven]

I have explained John 1:1 and you continue to throw it out there like it was written in gold that the Word was Almighty God (which John 1:1 does not say).

To answer your question, no, I did not believe that the Father and the Son were equal, and the Holy Spirit was never a person to me. In fact, the first reason I had to respect JWs was the fact that they recognized the Father.

Then you have never been a Christian?

 

[journey]

Jesus Christ said:

John 10:27-30 KJV My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30. I and my Father are one.

 

[Bright Raven]

Meshak, I notice that you voted yes in this poll. You do realize that eternality, have no being and having no end, is a trait that only God possesses correct? Your answer says that you believe Jesus is God.

 

[KingdomRose]

John 1:1 according to the Believers Bible Commentary.

He did not have a beginning Himself, but existed for all eternity. As far as the human mind can go back, the Lord Jesus was there. He never was created. He had no beginning. The Word was with God. He had a separate and distinct personality. He was not just an idea, a thought or some vague kind of example, but a real person who lived with God. The Word was God. He not only dwelt with God, He was God.

The Bible teaches that there is one God and that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All three of these persons are God. In this verse two of the persons of the Godhead are mentioned - God the Father and God the Son. It is the first of many clear statements in this Gospel the Jesus Christ is God. It is not enough to say that he is "a god," that He is godlike or that He is divine. The bible teaches that He is God.


1 John 1:1-2King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Now what is it about eternal that you do not understand?

The Bible teaches that there is one God, JEHOVAH. Jesus said to JEHOVAH, "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) If there were more than one, he would certainly have said so!

What is your point about "eternal"?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Hebrews 7.3.

Without beginning or ending of days.

 

[Bright Raven]

The Bible teaches that there is one God, JEHOVAH. Jesus said to JEHOVAH, "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) If there were more than one, he would certainly have said so!

What is your point about "eternal"?

Jesus is eternal! He is without beginning and without end! Hello!!!

 

[Totton Linnet]

My Creator....how amazing that people do not worship their Creator

 

[Totton Linnet]

The Bible teaches that there is one God, JEHOVAH. Jesus said to JEHOVAH, "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) If there were more than one, he would certainly have said so!

What is your point about "eternal"?

this is eternal life that they know Thee the one true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.

 

[KingdomRose]

Oh, then the Father was "he that liveth, and was dead...", too, the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last? Funny how you JW's don't like to read all of Revelation 1. :chuckle:

Rev. 1:11a
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: ...

Revelation 1:17-18
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

You are quoting a verse that does not say "Alpha & Omega" like the three other verses in Revelation. If you look at an interlinear Bible you can see it. You were quoting from Revelation 1:17 & 18. Alpha and Omega do not appear in the Greek in this verse. You should really read ALL of Revelation 1. It says: "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he put his right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and behold, I am living forever and ever." (The Interlinear Bible, in Hebrew, Greek & English/ Hendrickson) Now, if you look at the Greek alongside or over the English, you can see that it does not have the Alpha and Omega signs like the other verses. So this "First and Last" do not mean what the other verses mean that have explicitly "Alpha" and "Omega." If you look at an interlinear you'll see what I mean. So....Revelation 1: 17 & 18 refer to Jesus; the others verses do not.

Revelation 1:8 refers to Jehovah, God. So do Rev. 21:6 & 22:13. He is the Alpha & Omega. Look it up in an interlinear version. You can see the difference.

Ha Ha....JWs don't read all of the chapter? I guess we do. You are the one who doesn't recognize the differences in the verses.

 

[Bright Raven]

You are quoting a verse that does not say "Alpha & Omega" like the three other verses in Revelation. If you look at an interlinear Bible you can see it. You were quoting from Revelation 1:17 & 18. Alpha and Omega do not appear in the Greek in this verse. You should really read ALL of Revelation 1. It says: "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he put his right hand on me, saying to me, Do not fear. I am the First and the Last, and the Living One; and I became dead; and behold, I am living forever and ever." (The Interlinear Bible, in Hebrew, Greek & English/ Hendrickson) Now, if you look at the Greek alongside or over the English, you can see that it does not have the Alpha and Omega signs like the other verses. So this "First and Last" do not mean what the other verses mean that have explicitly "Alpha" and "Omega." If you look at an interlinear you'll see what I mean. So....Revelation 1: 17 & 18 refer to Jesus; the others verses do not.

Revelation 1:8 refers to Jehovah, God. So do Rev. 21:6 & 22:13. He is the Alpha & Omega. Look it up in an interlinear version. You can see the difference.

Ha Ha....JWs don't read all of the chapter? I guess we do. You are the one who doesn't recognize the differences in the verses.

He is described in verse seven as Him whom they pierced. In verse 18 as He who lives , and was dead but is alive forevermore. Hello, Jesus and Jesus speaking.

 

[patrick jane]

I don't. I claim him to be co-eternal with the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Amen BR !!

 

[KingdomRose]

I voted yes but would point out that the eternal Logos', God the Son's BECAME Jesus at the incarnation. Just a technical distinction but worth mentioning because of the way the question is worded.

As for proof...

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.


Philippians 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,


1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.​

He who denies the deity of Christ, denies Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete

That is just not true. I've done a lot of research about the verses you cited, and every one of them can be rebutted. Jesus would be the first to say that he is not equal to the Father. In fact, he called the Father "my God"....John 20:17, Revelation 3:12....and said that the Father was "the only true God." (John 17:3) What do you say about these verses? Answer me, please. You may see that you have no "proof." If you want to see.

 

[Apple7]

That is just not true. I've done a lot of research about the verses you cited, and every one of them can be rebutted. Jesus would be the first to say that he is not equal to the Father. In fact, he called the Father "my God"....John 20:17, Revelation 3:12....and said that the Father was "the only true God." (John 17:3) What do you say about these verses? Answer me, please. You may see that you have no "proof." If you want to see.

οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος

oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)

:cigar:

 

[KingdomRose]

If that were so, he would have said so.


8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

He did say so. You know, the Father (Jehovah) was the Most High to Jews back in Jesus' day, so they understood that most of the references to "God" or "the Alpha & Omega" were referring to the Father. There wouldn't have been the arguments then that are going on now. Today the Father is scarcely recognized. Why? A large part of the reason is that His own name has been removed from Bible versions. Jesus is preached by Christendom, but not Jehovah, and therefore people think that everywhere "the Lord" appears, it refers to Jesus.

Check these facts out, concerning the Divine Name (Tetragrammaton) and the Greek Scriptures:

Matthew, for example, made more than a hundred quotations from the O.T. When these quotes included the Tetragrammaton (YHWH), he would have faithfully included it in his account. When the Gospel of Matthew was translated into Greek, "YHWH" was left untranslated within the Greek text, according to the practice of that time! Not only Matthew but all the writers of the N.T. quoted verses from the Hebrew text or from the Septuagint where the Divine Name appears. (E.g., in Peter's speech at Acts 3:22 he quotes from Deut. 18:15 where "YHWH" appears in a papyrus fragment of the Septuagint dated to the first century B.C. As a follower of Christ, Peter used God's name, Jehovah. When Peter's speech was put on record the "YHWH" was here used according to the practice during the first century B.C. and the first century A.D.

Sometime during the 2nd or 3rd century A.D., the scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the N.T. and replaced it with Ky'rios ("Lord"), or Theos ("God"). The Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol.96, 1977, p.63, makes the statement: "This removal of the Tetragrammaton, in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the 'Lord God' and the 'Lord Christ' which is reflected in the manuscript tradition of the NT text itself." (George Howard of the University of Georgia)

(See also, please, my Post #35.) People need to do more research.


:think: