not a single word of my post can be proven untrue by any mortal. The bible backs it.
Is eternal suffering literal?
- Thread starter Keiw1
- Start date
Jesus said--The only true God sent him( John 17:3) so why are you making it up that the only true God came down here?
There is no life in death. All thought stops. One can do 0 when dead.
Wow, what a thorough response. I will try to give my take on things as briefly as possible. Remember I am not here to debate but merely to share how I see things. You are welcome to disagree.
Derf wondered: The bible says "He" was buried, not "His body" was buried.
1. My reply: Well, who was the Christ? Ans: He was fully man. So let me discuss what a man is before I address what happened to Jesus at this death. Gen. 1 Man began as a spirit identified as male/female. Genesis 2 The LORD formed mankind a body from the elements of the earth and when mankind was joined with his living body that was the point he became a soul. . So, what is man the soul especially after the fall? He/they were sentient living unique individuals with living mortal bodies and a freewill. Each part of humanity was given a measure of life. The spirit of male/female was given a measure of life and the body was also given a mist of spiritual life.
2. So, who was the Christ? As a man he was a sentient living unique individual with a living body and free will.
3. Now if a man dies his body is buried but his spirit lives on. It is the body that was laid in that tomb NOT his Spirit.
Now, who was Jesus as a Spirit? He was the WORD of God, who was God and was with God before the word was. God was not buried. How would he have been able to pick up 'that body' again and raise it from the dead to present before the throne in heaven?
Derf wondered: Why do you say it was a non earthly place? Jesus went to Hades. Hades is sometimes translated as "grave". Graves are the epitome of earthly.
My reply ... just as you say: Sometimes translated as "grave." From scripture we know of various places where God chooses to place men and angels as warranted.
1. On visible solid earth as mortals whose lifeless flesh is usually buried in a grave but not always.
2. Another less earthly place where saints exist in their robes of white asking how much longer do we wait. Invisible to us mortals.
3. Lost humanity go to a place of torment which not an earthly place ... most of us call it hell. I don't quibble over precise nouns as sine people do. I look more to the descriptions of the places.
4. The pit, which the demons feared. I'd need to re-read scripture to describe any details of that places. I figure no demons had yet gone there.
5. Lastly, the Lake of fire where lost angels and humanity go together in the end. Lots of info is given about that other worldly place. So where did the Spirit of Christ/God go to preach to the lost soul who lived up until the time the ark was built. Well, I don't know of a noun use to name the place, but it was not on earth among the mortals. It was a place people were put until the Christ could reveal truth to them. Why preach to that group and not others? My opinion: These people lived from the age of Adam up to the Ark. They had lost total understanding of who God was and did not know the writings of Moses nor know about the Ten Commandments or any of that stuff. Do you know that Cain had never heard this: "Thou shalt not murder!" At the flood Noah and his family did not know everything about God but they had more revelations of HIM or at least shared a renewed awareness of the true God to their descendants.
Derf's suggestion: There's no clear indication that Jesus did this while dead.
My reply: I do not believe Jesus was dead ... at least not spiritually. He was the Spirit of God which has been called The WORD. Of course his body did die.
Derf suggested: It could have been before or after, or it could have been that His resurrection is what speaks to the spirits in prison, not a verbal speaking. I'm not sure how to understand this passage, but it is not at all clear that this passage is talking about souls of men in Hades that are hearing the gospel. There are too many things you have to add to it to get that out of it.
My reply: Remember, Derf, John tells us that the Messiah was the WORD of God. Genesis 3 says that the WORD was heard walking in the Garden. It says that He called out to Adam. It says that Adam and his Woman hid from his presence. Now, you decide to insinuate that he could not speak when he went to these poor lost souls who lived during the days while the arch was being built.
Derf wrote: I agree that the OT prison for the dead was probably not a burning hell.
Great!
Derf suggested: Rather it seems like it was the grave, and to be released from that prison requires resurrection...of the man, not just the body.
If it does not distinguish, then we need to be careful not to assume some distinction between "prison" and "grave".
My response: What is a grave? It is a place of separation from other things/people/places. If you read Gen. 1 carefully you will notice that God the Spirit is establishing boundaries in order to separate things. I call these realms within God. You and I merely disagree about two matters:
1. Which is the grave, which is hell, which is the pit, which is the place prepared for the Saints, which is the prison, which is the Bosom of Abraham etc. Well, I just say they are all places established by God to hold living sentient beings [men and angels] until God is ready to end things and make all things new.
2. Who the demons are. I believe they are the one third of the angels who followed Satan not lost souls of humans.
I pray I have written this clearly. I don't have time to proof read and edit. I'm baby sitting grand children.
So your position us unfalsifiable?
No even the Bible makes such a claim.
Because you say so?
Jesus said:
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Bible Gateway passage: John 17:3 - New King James Version
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
You don't know Jesus.
Because of chapters such as this one:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ” And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”He said, “I am not.”“Are you the Prophet?”And he answered, “No.” Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” He said: “I am‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:“Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’as the prophet Isaiah said.” Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.” These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.” And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!” The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, “What do you seek?”They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?” He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour). One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus.Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone). The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, “Follow Me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” And Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!” Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?”Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - New King James Version
The Eternal Word - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the...
Because you say so?
The suffering is not itself a punishment, just a natural consequence of rejecting God. The punishment is separation, not suffering.
God is not going to be sitting in the lake of fire using a flamethrower on those who are there for all eternity.
He will not be there. The only people who will be to blame for the suffering in the lake of fire are the people who live there.
Derf
Well-known member
Blah blah blah
Derf
Well-known member
Your response was also very clear and thorough in terms of explanation. But I'm hoping we can work through this using scripture to back up our assertions. I'll respond more later, when I have time.
Derf
Well-known member
@Ps82 (and @Bladerunner). It works better, and doesn't take as long, if you reply to the post from the link at the bottom of the post, then hit RETURN key at any point where you want to comment, assuming you are using the formatted editor.
It was a prayer to his Father--His Father sent him, thus clearly Jesus said the one who sent him= his Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.So your position us unfalsifiable?
No even the Bible makes such a claim.
Because you say so?
Jesus said:
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Bible Gateway passage: John 17:3 - New King James Version
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.www.biblegateway.com
You don't know Jesus.
Because of chapters such as this one:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ” And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”He said, “I am not.”“Are you the Prophet?”And he answered, “No.” Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” He said: “I am‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:“Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’as the prophet Isaiah said.” Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.” These things were done in Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.” And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!” The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, “What do you seek?”They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?” He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour). One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). And he brought him to Jesus.Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone). The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, “Follow Me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” And Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!” Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?”Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - New King James Version
The Eternal Word - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the...www.biblegateway.com
Because you say so?
There is NO life in death.
One has to know truth for their worship to be acceptable to the only true God= Father-John 4:22-24
My thoughts: If God is omni-present, then if there is a created place by definition he is there!
I also believe God did not create things out of nothing. That statement doesn't even make sense if we say he is omni-present.
God created all things within his infinite self. He called forth things that were not and by him they consist. Colossians 1:17.
Of course verses 12-16 are gradually introducing the connection of the Father and Son as being the ONE creator God is building. Therefore saying "He called forth things that were not and by him they consist" is revealing that all things designed and formed consist [somehow] of his spiritual essence. Created things are never equal to God... but I learned that HE is able to share of his essence in measures.
Jesus was the only man who ever came close to being a perfect man and that is because God gave unto him all things of the Spirit without measure.
John 3:34-35 KJV For he whom God hath sent speaketh, the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Derf
Well-known member
Right! And you don't find truth by first deciding what you believe, and then reading it into the scriptures.
Derf
Well-known member
Why do you start with the premise that God is omnipresent? Is it a necessary attribute of God? Is it biblically justified? I'm not sure it is.
The holy spirit guided my religion into truth=at the proper time( Matt 24:45)--God only has 1 truth, God only has 1 religion, not hundreds with hundreds of different truths.
Bladerunner
Active member
thanks for the advise. Did not know the 'return' would work like that...However, I usually copy the post and on a editor write my response..The main reason so I do not post the reply before it is ready. Thanks again.
Derf
Well-known member
Gen 2 says a soul is made up of an inanimate body animated by a breath from God. If either part is missing, or not functioning, the person is dead. Thus, a soul without a body is, well, nothing.
Yes. Him--not just His body.
You've given the right scripture. Please show me where it says "His body was buried", or "His body was raised on the third day." If *He* was somewhere else, then *He* wasn't buried. If *He* was still alive, then *He* wasn't resurrected. You can't resurrect a live thing, only a dead thing that was once alive. And the bible never treats His body as a separate thing from Him. If it did, then it would have to say "His body was buried," or "His soul went to Abraham's bosom." But a body without a spirit is dead, and so is a human spirit without a body, I think. In other wirds, you need both a body (made from earthly materials) and a breath from God to make a living human ("soul" in Gen 2).
My reply: I base his omnipresence on these things:
1. Theologians much smarter than me have said he is.
2. References in scripture. One search I just did said that there are100s of passages which speak of the ways he is all and in all.
One author suggested his top ten: My favorites among them were Jeremiah 23:24; Psalm 139:7-10; Proverbs15:3; Isaiah 57:15.
3. However I also based my conclusion on a personal study of Genesis 1 and some other clues. In Gen 1 I first realized God is an invisible Spirit but he is able to establish places and things within himself. These would ultimately be manifested and put to use.
One might compare this creative process to how an architect would mentally think of a plan for a shopping mall and then draw out the plans and provide the supplies and build it ... EXCEPT for God this is the truth: God's spiritual essence is life, power, intellect and so forth; so, God can create things within himself and give measures of life to what ever living beings he wishes to manifest. Thus, I believe male and female mentioned in Genesis 1 were living within the invisible spiritual essence God as two unique spiritual beings in the beginning ... but they were body-less. Architects can't give life to what they create!
Then in Gen. 1:6 ... I noticed God was creating realms or places where things, like the sun, moon, stars etc, would exist. Next I noticed the dwelling place of earth... and upon it there were specific places where things could dwell, the birds of the air, the sea and all that was in it... etc. Much later in the NT I learned about other places established within God called - Abraham's bosom, the Pit, Hell, a place in the light versus the place in the darkness for lost souls, and the Lake of Fire. The essence of God is in all those places for he created them and they dwell within him. And remember he even knows the number of hairs on our heads and I've figured he knows how many are on the ground. And let's not forget he sees us forming in the womb and he sees into our hearts and know our spiritual intentions. How much more everywhere can he be?
Isaiah 43:11 tells us the promised one will only be: God, LORD, and Savior. I think Col 1:16-17 is a great verse for adding a nuance to what God's relationship is to creation. It is talking about Jesus, but we know Jesus was God, LORD, and Savior finally manifested upon the earth in flesh doing what God told him to do and say. Verse 17 explains he, being God/Emmanuel, was before all things and by him all things consist.
Now if by him all things consist - notice it is talking about what things consist of NOT about what caused their existence... therefore, God's essence must be some part of the essence of all things that exist whether they be thrones powers, principalities, etc.
Now, what does what I have written have to do with all things being in the Spirit of God? You know Jesus our risen Lord is something like a dwelling place... for we believers will dwell in him safely because he is in us. We will be one with our Lord. What do I mean? In Genesis 1 God said let there be LIGHT. John 1 tells us THAT LIGHT had come into the world and he was called Jesus. Other scripture reveals we believers shall well in the LIGHT versus being cast into outer darkness. These are places/realms within God. Believers are no longer programmed to dwell in outer darkness but with our Lord in the LIGHT. See how God separates things and places things ... but it all exists within Him.
Well, I rambled in this part of my answer, but there are just so many bits of clues that for me do support HIS omnipresence.
Yes.
This statement of Jesus, however, is not exclusionary.
It does not preclude the Son from also being the only true God.
It does not preclude the Holy Spirit from apso being the only true God.
If you're going to argue against the trinitarian position, then you need to find verses that preclude any other Persons than the Father from also being the only true God, because the trinitarian position is that God is three Persons in one Being, not one Person. Using verses that affirm one of those persons as the one true God only affirm our position, and do absolutely nothing to contradict our position.
Indeed. No one says there is life in death.
But we're not talking about life. We're talking about existence.
Abraham still exists, Moses still exists, David still exists. Yet all three of those men are physically dead.
Paul says he died once. The author of Hebrews says it is appointed unto man once to die, and then afterwards the judgement. So clearly, death has multiple meanings, and which one should be used depends on the context.
In the context of this discussion, life is God, and the property which He imparted to entities within creation that makes them either beings or organisms. The effects of this property may be further described, but it's nature, being tied up in the very nature of the essence of the Godhead, cannot be otherwise defined.
When it comes to where someone goes after they die, being with God is life, and being separated from life (God) is death. Paul spoke of a spiritual death after birth, but not a physical death, one which caused Him to become separated from God (iow, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," and that "fall short" means we have missed the mark; you could say that, in a sense, our attempts at hitting the mark are separated from the mark), a spiritual death. The death that the author of Hebrews spoke of was physical death. If it was speaking of spiritual death, then not only would it conflict with what Paul said, but it would mean that there would be no hope for anyone, because "after this the judgment."
Your words also contradict Paul's words, who stated clearly that He who raised Christ from the dead will give life to those who have Christ's Spirit dwelling within them, and that life will last forever.
So God must be in the same room that a child is being raped, by the very definition you adhere to.
Your definition forces Him there, when He cannot stand such vile behavior being in His presence!
No, God is not "omnipresent." There is nothing biblical about that form of it.
You sound like @Lon.
I don't say God is omnipresent. That is your assumption.
In other words, you're begging the question. That's a fallacy.
God DID create out of nothing.
Stop now before you commit blasphemy.
Jesus WAS and IS and WILL ALWAYS BE PERFECT, both before He became a man, and during His earthly life as the Son of Man, and forevermore as God and Man.
To correct you, Jesus was the only man who ever was a perfect man, because He was God.