Is eternal suffering literal?

[Keiw1]

Except now we have the immovable rock being hit by the unstoppable force. Their bodies are new and improved. They are incorruptible. If incorruptible, then the fires of hell can't annihilate them, but they still feel the pain.

The dead are dead, they know nothing. They cannot think.

 

[Keiw1]

Of course! Because those who take the threat seriously don't want it to happen to them. So they, through threat of eternal punishment, are eager to avoid such. You should, too, Brain. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

These believe-Matt 7:21-23--they won't be saved. That was a partial truth about believing--Obeying carries much more weight.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The dead are dead, they know nothing. They cannot think.

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew22:29-32&version=NKJV

 

[Derf]

The dead are dead, they know nothing. They cannot think.

Of course! That's why they need to be resurrected first. But that kind of death where the dead know nothing is no longer available after it is thrown in the lake of fire. Only the 2nd death is, which is the lake of fire.

 

[Keiw1]

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew22:29-32&version=NKJV

That is about the little flock, not the great crowd. And to God all the righteous who ever lived are in a sense still living to Jehovah's view. The first death is temporary. He knows 100% they will live again in the resurrection. So to him are still alive in a sense.

 

[Keiw1]

Of course! That's why they need to be resurrected first. But that kind of death where the dead no nothing is no longer available after it is thrown in the lake of fire. Only the 2nd death is, which is the lake of fire.

They know nothing in the first death either--Ecclesiastes 9:10--All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol( grave) the place to which you are going. Sheol = Hades.

 

[Right Divider]

Mark 9:43-44 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (9:44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. ​

Mark is quoting Isaiah:

Isa 66:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(66:24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. ​

​

P.S. Mark repeats this THREE TIMES.

Mark 9:43-48 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (9:44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (9:45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (9:46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (9:47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: (9:48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. ​

 

[Derf]

They know nothing in the first death either--Ecclesiastes 9:10--All that your hands find to do, do with your very power, for there is no work, nor devising, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Sheol( grave) the place to which you are going. Sheol = Hades.

Yes, I agree. But they do know something in their 2nd death. They know suffering/torment. That's my point--that the 2nd death is not like the first one. That's why it had to be defined as the lake of fire.

 

[Keiw1]

Yes, I agree. But they do know something in their 2nd death. They know suffering/torment. That's my point--that the 2nd death is not like the first one. That's why it had to be defined as the lake of fire.

John 3:16 warns against being destroyed. Jesus teaches those walking the broad and spacious path to destruction.

 

[Derf]

John 3:16 warns against being destroyed. Jesus teaches those walking the broad and spacious path to destruction.

Right, but you've ignored my post that says "destroyed" doesn't always mean "utterly destroyed". And "perish" sometimes means merely "die". Until you deal with that, the rest of your point is moot.

 

[Keiw1]

Right, but you've ignored my post that says "destroyed" doesn't always mean "utterly destroyed". And "perish" sometimes means merely "die". Until you deal with that, the rest of your point is moot.

Only a sadist would create a literal eternal suffering. God is love.

 

[Bladerunner]

It could possibly be talking about different places. Or, the darkness might be symbolic of not having the Father and Jesus around, since they are the light of the New Jerusalem.

Or it might be showing that the parable wasn't supposed to be describing things exactly as they will be in the lake of fire.

Jesus spoke about hell more than He did Heaven. Be it or not a darkness, it is certainly a lake of Fire and Brimstone..and those that are in it will forever be tormented.

 

[Bladerunner]

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew22:29-32&version=NKJV

so your a universalist?

 

[JudgeRightly]

so your a universalist?

No.

 

[Ps82]

Lets see what the bible teaches on that matter-Literal or symbolic?
Deut 32:4-All of Gods ways are justice)= perfect justice as he taught= an eye for an eye--His justice scales are in perfect balance, lets apply those scales to eternal suffering.
On one side=70-100 years of an unrepented life-- A literal eternal suffering = Trillions x trillions x trillions etc of never ending years of punishment to suffer--See 0 balance in that scenario--Thus eternal suffering was symbolism. The true God set before all-LIFE or DEATH( Deut 30:19) both will be eternal. The true God is love, not a sadist who would condemn one to suffer eternally. Only blind guides teach it as literal.

The symbolism is-- As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom those not allowed in miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal suffering.

Do you believe the bible or blind guides?

Hello. I believe scripture. There are verses used to talk about eternal suffering which I think are misread: Rev. 14:10-11. These are talking about humans who took the mark of the beast. It does not say they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The LOF comes after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

They are thrown in a place of torment, a realm, where they have no rest day or night. Verse 11 simply states "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." Now, they may be suffering but scripture says it is the smoke of that realm that ascends forever. I think this describes the place many call hell or even hades.

We are told much later that hell/hades gives up the dead/lost in it and those not found in the book of life go into the Lake of Fire. This is known as the second death for humanity.

Now, what is death like in the LOF? I believe scripture at least says Satan will be tormented for ever and ever in it. So MAY be the beast and the false prophet which were the first to be thrown in when Christ returned.

However, I am not so sure whether the life of the living souls of humanity will remain inside or be consumed back into God who is life and the giver of life. If he giveth, he can taketh back. Here is my reason/theory/speculation.

I believe God created mankind's body out of the elements called ground. Same elements from which the earth was formed. God cursed the ground when Adam/Woman committed their sin. The process of death over time came unto mankind and the earth also began to wear out like an old garment. This was done obviously for a big reason.

God's first command to humanity was to multiply and reproduce. He was growing himself a family. Since birthing was a process over time so would death need to be so that multiplying and reproducing would continue. Now, I think God allows humanity to live until he is ready to end multiplying and reproducing. The way to accomplish this long suffering time is to have store houses for holding the living spirits of mankind. For them he has named some of his barns. 1. the bosom of Abraham, the place of heat and torment/hell, the place Christ goes to prepare for us, and finally the Lake of fire.

Satan and his take a different route, cast out/down and commanded to partake of the dust of the ground forever, but still with access to God, chained in 'the Pit/Abyss.' And finally the Lake of Fire.

Now, at approximately the same time Satan and hell's content are cast into the LOF the earth is made new again. That means there are no longer any cursed ELEMENT OF THE GROUND LEFT... all is made new.

I believe it is at this time that mankind looses its physical identity when the body of his soul is destroyed and that God, who is life and the giver of life, takes back that life into his own eternal infinite self from which it came. This may very well describe the SECOND DEATH for mankind.

This is why I don't think mankind suffers forever in the Lake of Fire. He is gone.

Now, for Satan and the beast and false prophet ... well, that's another topic.

 

[Derf]

Only a sadist would create a literal eternal suffering. God is love.

Remember that God commonly destroyed whole cities and even the whole world including children. He put His own people in bondage to the Egyptians, and purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart, knowing the work would get harder for them. So His love must be understood according to what He has done and will do. Neither of us understands all of what will happen to people who are in an eternal lake of fire condition, but when it says they are tormented day and night, we can't arbitrarily say the bible doesn't mean what it says, else we should just throw out the bible as a useless human compilation.

Calling it sadist is subjective.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Remember that God commonly destroyed whole cities and even the whole world including children. He put His own people in bondage to the Egyptians, and purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart, knowing the work would get harder for them. So His love must be understood according to what He has done and will do. Neither of us understands all of what will happen to people who are in an eternal lake of fire condition, but when it says they are tormented day and night, we can't arbitrarily say the bible doesn't mean what it says, else we should just throw out the bible as a useless human compilation.

Calling it sadist is subjective.

Only a sadist would create a literal eternal suffering. God is love.

Sadism would be God forcing people who hate Him to live with him for the rest of eternity.

Sin (and its consequences) cannot be expunged.

Jesus asked His Father if there was any other way to save mankind from their sins without His having to go to the cross. The answer was that He went willingly to it.

These three things show that Hell (and the lake of fire) must be real, and not only real, but where the souls of those who reject God must eventually go, BECAUSE God is love, and love is the commitment to the good of someone, and because allowing those who hate Him (and therefore those who love Him as well) would be harmful to those who hate Him, and to Him and those who love Him, thus, the only solution for God to enact is to permanently separate those who hate Him from Himself and those love Him, not because He is a sadist, but because that is their choice.

The eternal suffering is not because of God.

It's a result of the choice to reject God.

 

[Keiw1]

Hello. I believe scripture. There are verses used to talk about eternal suffering which I think are misread: Rev. 14:10-11. These are talking about humans who took the mark of the beast. It does not say they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The LOF comes after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.

They are thrown in a place of torment, a realm, where they have no rest day or night. Verse 11 simply states "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." Now, they may be suffering but scripture says it is the smoke of that realm that ascends forever. I think this describes the place many call hell or even hades.

We are told much later that hell/hades gives up the dead/lost in it and those not found in the book of life go into the Lake of Fire. This is known as the second death for humanity.

Now, what is death like in the LOF? I believe scripture at least says Satan will be tormented for ever and ever in it. So MAY be the beast and the false prophet which were the first to be thrown in when Christ returned.

However, I am not so sure whether the life of the living souls of humanity will remain inside or be consumed back into God who is life and the giver of life. If he giveth, he can taketh back. Here is my reason/theory/speculation.

I believe God created mankind's body out of the elements called ground. Same elements from which the earth was formed. God cursed the ground when Adam/Woman committed their sin. The process of death over time came unto mankind and the earth also began to wear out like an old garment. This was done obviously for a big reason.

God's first command to humanity was to multiply and reproduce. He was growing himself a family. Since birthing was a process over time so would death need to be so that multiplying and reproducing would continue. Now, I think God allows humanity to live until he is ready to end multiplying and reproducing. The way to accomplish this long suffering time is to have store houses for holding the living spirits of mankind. For them he has named some of his barns. 1. the bosom of Abraham, the place of heat and torment/hell, the place Christ goes to prepare for us, and finally the Lake of fire.

Satan and his take a different route, cast out/down and commanded to partake of the dust of the ground forever, but still with access to God, chained in 'the Pit/Abyss.' And finally the Lake of Fire.

Now, at approximately the same time Satan and hell's content are cast into the LOF the earth is made new again. That means there are no longer any cursed ELEMENT OF THE GROUND LEFT... all is made new.

I believe it is at this time that mankind looses its physical identity when the body of his soul is destroyed and that God, who is life and the giver of life, takes back that life into his own eternal infinite self from which it came. This may very well describe the SECOND DEATH for mankind.

This is why I don't think mankind suffers forever in the Lake of Fire. He is gone.

Now, for Satan and the beast and false prophet ... well, that's another topic.

Symbolism on eternal suffering. John 3:16 says those not exercising faith in Jesus will be destroyed. Hades(grave) and death gets thrown in the lake of fire to be destroyed as all things will be, thrown in there.

 

[Keiw1]

Remember that God commonly destroyed whole cities and even the whole world including children. He put His own people in bondage to the Egyptians, and purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart, knowing the work would get harder for them. So His love must be understood according to what He has done and will do. Neither of us understands all of what will happen to people who are in an eternal lake of fire condition, but when it says they are tormented day and night, we can't arbitrarily say the bible doesn't mean what it says, else we should just throw out the bible as a useless human compilation.

Calling it sadist is subjective.

The first death isn't permanent, the second death is. John 3:16 those not exercising faith in Jesus will be destroyed.

 

[Keiw1]

Sadism would be God forcing people who hate Him to live with him for the rest of eternity.

Sin (and its consequences) cannot be expunged.

Jesus asked His Father if there was any other way to save mankind from their sins without His having to go to the cross. The answer was that He went willingly to it.

These three things show that Hell (and the lake of fire) must be real, and not only real, but where the souls of those who reject God must eventually go, BECAUSE God is love, and love is the commitment to the good of someone, and because allowing those who hate Him (and therefore those who love Him as well) would be harmful to those who hate Him, and to Him and those who love Him, thus, the only solution for God to enact is to permanently separate those who hate Him from Himself and those love Him, not because He is a sadist, but because that is their choice.

The eternal suffering is not because of God.

It's a result of the choice to reject God.

Sheol= Hades= the grave= Hades = hell. John 3:16 is clear-those not exercising faith in Jesus will be destroyed.