Moses did not write any part of the Bible, nor are the words "Triune God" in the text.
So I guess I "don't know my scriptures" then. But those scriptures I do not know certainly don't say the word "Triune" or "Trinity."
Noted.
If you don't believe in the trinity...
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Apple7
New member
The Trinity already comprehends God The Father.
Trinitarians don't have to cherry pick scriptures, as The Trinity comprehends ALL scripture.
As I demonstrated, God The Son (The Word of Yahweh) is mentioned 10x in Jeremiah, alone, over that of God The Father....but, you gloss over this fact as it does not jive with your agenda...
God The Son is NOT God The Father.
That is your first mistake.
If you believe that Jesus prayed to God The Father as recorded in the NT, then you have no choice but to also accept the fact that Jesus NEVER asked for His own forgiveness - as He never needed forgiveness, as He is God.
Further, Jesus teaches us to pray in The Father's singular name...of which, is the same singular name as The Son and The Spirit. (Mat 6.9 - 13)
Apple7
New member
Another great Book revealing The Trinity...
For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa 9.6)
Seems you overlooked this importance verse in Isaiah which point-blank states that The Son has the same exact NAME as The Father.
This, then, makes The Son Yahweh.
God The Son.
Hahaha, look at all the wreathing, twisting, sidewinding, and coiling going on here. I never said the Father and the Son were the same: that is your mistake. It is YOU who said that "Jesus is YHWH" and that was the entire reason for the previous argument which you are now trying to sidewind your way around while pinning your error to my account by telling untruths about my own position. You are like a fiery flying leopard with four heads and four wings of a fowl in the curvature of your crooked spine. It would likely take four arrows to pin you down to one stationary position and yet the leopard still cannot change his spots. :crackup:
Ah, so now you take up your former position, eh? YHWH is clearly the Father as already shown above from the passages which were quoted. When YOU therefore say that "Jesus is YHWH" YOU are saying by default that he is the Father because the Father is YHWH. As for the Isaiah passage you now quote it has already been gone over in depth three or four times by myself alone and surely many more times in many more threads by countless others. It does not prove your position just because you found a trinitarian biased corrupt English translation to suit your needs. For one the portion which you need to make your point does not even appear in the Septuagint which most all of the Apostolic writers quote from and for two it is not rendered fairly in comparison to other places where this form, yiqra', (qara', to call) appears in the text. The Young's Literal Bible Translation renders it fairly although the capitalization emphasis in the YLT is incorrect even according to the context of the passage itself:
Isaiah 9:6 YLT
6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
The form "yiqra" is "he calls", ("wa-yiqra'" - "and he calls") as rendered almost unanimously in many other places. The Princely Power of the Empire is upon the shoulder of the child that is born and the Son that is given from above. The Princely Power of the Empire also concerns the Key of David, (given from the Father). The Princely Power is neither the child that is born, nor the Son that is given, but rather either the Holy Spirit or the Father Himself who abode-remained upon the shoulder of the man Yeshua from the day of his immersion.
"For a child has been born to us, (the man Yeshua) and a Son has been given to us, (the Son of God, John 3:16) and the Princely Power is upon his shoulder: and he (the child the Son) calls His Name, (the Princely Power that is upon his shoulder) Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace."
Surely now you will accuse me of reworking this passage, as other always do, but the above is merely the proper understanding as taken straight from Young's Literal Bible Translation as it is quoted above. And again, the passage does not even say anything close to this in the Septuagint. The passage simply does not say what your corrupted trinitarian-biased renderings like to say that it says.
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keypurr
Well-known member
Hahaha, look at all the wreathing, twisting, sidewinding, and coiling going on here. I never said the Father and the Son were the same: that is your mistake. It is YOU who said that "Jesus is YHWH" and that was the entire reason for the previous argument which you are now trying to sidewind your way around while pinning your error to my account by telling untruths about my own position. You are like a fiery flying leopard with four heads and four wings of a fowl in the curvature of your crooked spine. It would likely take four arrows to pin you down to one stationary position and yet the leopard still cannot change his spots. :crackup:
Great post my friend, but Apple7 is not smart enough to see it.
Ah, so now you take up your former position, eh? YHWH is clearly the Father as already shown above from the passages which were quoted. When YOU therefore say that "Jesus is YHWH" YOU are saying by default that he is the Father because the Father is YHWH. As for the Isaiah passage you now quote it has already been gone over in depth three or four times by myself alone and surely many more times in many more threads by countless others. It does not prove your position just because you found a trinitarian biased corrupt English translation to suit your needs. For one the portion which you need to make your point does not even appear in the Septuagint which most all of the Apostolic writers quote from and for two it is not rendered fairly in comparison to other places where this form, yiqra', (qara', to call) appears in the text. The Young's Literal Bible Translation renders it fairly although the capitalization emphasis in the YLT is incorrect even according to the context of the passage itself:
Isaiah 9:6 YLT
6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
The form "yiqra" is "he calls", ("wa-yiqra'" - "and he calls") as rendered almost unanimously in many other places. The Princely Power of the Empire is upon the shoulder of the child that is born and the Son that is given from above. The Princely Power of the Empire also concerns the Key of David, (given from the Father). The Princely Power is neither the child that is born, nor the Son that is given, but rather either the Holy Spirit or the Father Himself who abode-remained upon the shoulder of the man Yeshua from the day of his immersion.
"For a child has been born to us, (the man Yeshua) and a Son has been given to us, (the Son of God, John 3:16) and the Princely Power is upon his shoulder: and he (the child the Son) calls His Name, (the Princely Power that is upon his shoulder) Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace."
Surely now you will accuse me of reworking this passage, as other always do, but the above is merely the proper understanding as taken straight from Young's Literal Bible Translation as it is quoted above. And again, the passage does not even say anything close to this in the Septuagint. The passage simply does not say what your corrupted trinitarian-biased renderings like to say that it says.
Ben Masada
New member
If you don't believe in the trinity...
... you are definitely in tune with the absolute Oneness of HaShem.
The Absolute Oneness of God
Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"
Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.
More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.
More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.
Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.
Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.
Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.
... you are definitely in tune with the absolute Oneness of HaShem.
The Absolute Oneness of God
Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"
Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.
More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.
More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.
Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.
Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.
Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.
Esaias 44:28 Septuagint
28. ὁ λέγων Κύρῳ φρονεῖν καὶ πάντα τὰ θελήματά μου ποιήσει· ὁ λέγων ῾Ιερουσαλήμ· οἰκοδομηθήσῃ, καὶ τὸν οἶκον τὸν ἅγιόν μου θεμελιώσω.
Esaias 45:1 Septuagint
1. ΟΥΤΩ λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς τῷ χριστῷ μου Κύρῳ, οὗ ἐκράτησα τῆς δεξιᾶς ἐπακοῦσαι ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ ἔθνη, καὶ ἰσχὺν βασιλέων διαρρήξω, ἀνοίξω ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ θύρας, καὶ πόλεις οὐ συγκλεισθήσονται.
Isaiah 44:24-28
24. Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, and He that formed you from the womb; I am YHWH that makes all things, who stretches forth the heavens alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself:
25. Who frustrates the tokens of the liars and makes diviners mad, who turns wise men backward, and makes their knowledge foolishness:
26. Who confirms the word of His servant, and performs the counsel of His messengers; who says to Yerushalaim, You shalt be inhabited! and to the cities of Yhudah, You shall be built! and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27. Who says to the deep, Be dry! and I will dry up your rivers:
28. Who says of Kuro, He is My Shepherd, and shall perform all My pleasure: even saying to Yerushalaim, You shalt be built! and to the temple, Your foundation shall be laid!
Isaiah 45:1-25
1. Thus says YHWH Elohim, to My Mashiyach-Christos, Kuro, whose right hand I have taken hold on, to subdue nations before him: and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates, and the gates shall not be shut:
2. I will go before you and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I am YHWH, who calls you by your name, "Elohey Yisrael".
4. For the sake of Yacob My servant, and Yisrael My Chosen One, I have even called you by your name, ("Elohey Yisrael") I have surnamed you, though you have not known me.
5. I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside Me: I gird you, though you have not known Me!
"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is chopped down and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. Not every one that says unto me, Kurie Kurie, (Kurie Kuro is Master Koresh) shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens; but he that does the will of my Father which is in the heavens. Many will say to me in that day, Kurie Kurie, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work anomian-Torahlessness!", (Matthew 7:19-23).
Ben Masada
New member
Esaias 44:28 Septuagint
28. ὁ λέγων Κύρῳ φρονεῖν καὶ πάντα τὰ θελήματά μου ποιήσει· ὁ λέγων ῾Ιερουσαλήμ· οἰκοδομηθήσῃ, καὶ τὸν οἶκον τὸν ἅγιόν μου θεμελιώσω.
Esaias 45:1 Septuagint
1. ΟΥΤΩ λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς τῷ χριστῷ μου Κύρῳ, οὗ ἐκράτησα τῆς δεξιᾶς ἐπακοῦσαι ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ ἔθνη, καὶ ἰσχὺν βασιλέων διαρρήξω, ἀνοίξω ἔμπροσθεν αὐτοῦ θύρας, καὶ πόλεις οὐ συγκλεισθήσονται.
Isaiah 44:24-28
24. Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, and He that formed you from the womb; I am YHWH that makes all things, who stretches forth the heavens alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself:
25. Who frustrates the tokens of the liars and makes diviners mad, who turns wise men backward, and makes their knowledge foolishness:
26. Who confirms the word of His servant, and performs the counsel of His messengers; who says to Yerushalaim, You shalt be inhabited! and to the cities of Yhudah, You shall be built! and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27. Who says to the deep, Be dry! and I will dry up your rivers:
28. Who says of Kuro, He is My Shepherd, and shall perform all My pleasure: even saying to Yerushalaim, You shalt be built! and to the temple, Your foundation shall be laid!
Isaiah 45:1-25
1. Thus says YHWH Elohim, to My Mashiyach-Christos, Kuro, whose right hand I have taken hold on, to subdue nations before him: and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates, and the gates shall not be shut:
2. I will go before you and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I am YHWH, who calls you by your name, "Elohey Yisrael".
4. For the sake of Yacob My servant, and Yisrael My Chosen One, I have even called you by your name, ("Elohey Yisrael") I have surnamed you, though you have not known me.
5. I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside Me: I gird you, though you have not known Me!
"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is chopped down and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. Not every one that says unto me, Kurie Kurie, (Kurie Kuro is Master Koresh) shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens; but he that does the will of my Father which is in the heavens. Many will say to me in that day, Kurie Kurie, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work anomian-Torahlessness!", (Matthew 7:19-23).
Sorry Daqq, but your post seems to me as a non-sequitur. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Absolute Oneness of God, unless you are trying to fabricate an interpretation of your own.
Kuro-Kuros is the root word from where Kurios is derived. It means authority, power, lordship, mastery. Kurie is simply a more affectionate way of saying Kurios-Master. Try looking elsewhere from what Judaism has taught you for a moment because Cyrus II clearly worshiped Marduk as attested in the Great Cyrus Cylinder which was recovered in the ruins of Babylon, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_cylinder). Likewise Koresh-Kurush means "like the sun" and was likely therefore used for similar purposes because Koresh for one does not necessarily mean "Cyrus" and for two Cyrus is not the fulfillment of the prophecy but rather used as typology for Messiah. The Mashiyach of YHWH is named in the passage as Kuros, or as Yeshua says, Kurie Kurie, (Master Kuros-Koresh) and again surnamed in the passage "Elohim Yisrael" even though he had not known YHWH beforehand. My point thus makes your point more valid whether you accept it or not, (because of your tradition).
Ben Masada
New member
The reference to Cyrus in Isa. 45:1 is not that of the Messiah per se. Although Messiah means the anointed one of the Lord, Cyrus was referred to as an anointed one for his role at proclaiming the Jewish People free to return to the Land of Israel and for his determination to finance the rebuilding of the temple. That's all.
The Messiah per se, Prophet Habakkuk referred to the People of Israel in what he said, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." (Hab. 3:13)
Messiah is indeed the whole nation and the suffering servant, and the nation is born in a day, at Golgotha, as likewise foretold in Isaiah 66:7-12 and Revelation 12:1-5, (perhaps you might try finding a decent and honest rendering of LXX Daniel 11) because both he that sanctifies, and those being sanctified, are from one the all: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare Thy Name, (the Father) unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto Thee, (Hebrews 2:11-12 quoting Psalm 22:22). The Father then is THE SAVIOR and THE DELIVERER because He delivered Yeshua the deliverer. The Father thus delivered the whole world when He delivered Yeshua.
:sheep:
Apple7
New member
You are of the mindset that when one refers to God, that it only applies to The Father.
Wrong.
Btw...no one is interested in your ad hominems....put your efforts into scripture.
Nope.
Nothing has changed.
Nope.
Scripture claims that The Son is Yahweh...not me.
As for the Isaiah passage you now quote it has already been gone over in depth three or four times by myself alone and surely many more times in many more threads by countless others. It does not prove your position just because you found a trinitarian biased corrupt English translation to suit your needs. For one the portion which you need to make your point does not even appear in the Septuagint which most all of the Apostolic writers quote from and for two it is not rendered fairly in comparison to other places where this form, yiqra', (qara', to call) appears in the text. The Young's Literal Bible Translation renders it fairly although the capitalization emphasis in the YLT is incorrect even according to the context of the passage itself:
Isaiah 9:6 YLT
6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
The form "yiqra" is "he calls", ("wa-yiqra'" - "and he calls") as rendered almost unanimously in many other places. The Princely Power of the Empire is upon the shoulder of the child that is born and the Son that is given from above. The Princely Power of the Empire also concerns the Key of David, (given from the Father). The Princely Power is neither the child that is born, nor the Son that is given, but rather either the Holy Spirit or the Father Himself who abode-remained upon the shoulder of the man Yeshua from the day of his immersion.
"For a child has been born to us, (the man Yeshua) and a Son has been given to us, (the Son of God, John 3:16) and the Princely Power is upon his shoulder: and he (the child the Son) calls His Name, (the Princely Power that is upon his shoulder) Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace."
Surely now you will accuse me of reworking this passage, as other always do, but the above is merely the proper understanding as taken straight from Young's Literal Bible Translation as it is quoted above. And again, the passage does not even say anything close to this in the Septuagint. The passage simply does not say what your corrupted trinitarian-biased renderings like to say that it says.
The meaning of Isa 9.6 remains intact independent of rendering.
It still mandates that The Son has the same singular name as that of The Father.
Jesus declared the same in Mat 28.
3 Persons; 1 Being.
The Trinity.
Judges 13 has 'Wonderful' as the title of Malek Yahweh (i.e. The Son) as He has a face-to-face discussion with Manoah, and subsequently accepts an animal sacrifice reserved only for Yahweh, Himself.
Scripture is just packed full of Trinitarian examples...
Now you freely admit that you worship the Messenger . . . :chuckle:
No man has seen the Father at any time.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Did Jesus claim to be Ehyeh of Ex. 3:14?
Did Jesus claim to be Ehyeh of Ex. 3:14?
The assumption in bold above is challenged and refuted here in 3 video presentations. It appears a stretch in linguistics to assume Jesus was claiming to be 'ehyeh asher ehyeh' or the 'ehyeh' of ex.3:14.....when 'ego eimi' is indicating that he is the one being referred to (I am he.....the one Abraham foresaw)...or indicating his pre-existence before Abraham's birth in the mind and plan of God. Other people have used to term 'ego eimi' to identify themselves in the NT....this does not mean they were claiming to be God.
~*~*~
See: John 8:58 and the other "I am" statements of Jesus & here.
pj
Did Jesus claim to be Ehyeh of Ex. 3:14?
The assumption in bold above is challenged and refuted here in 3 video presentations. It appears a stretch in linguistics to assume Jesus was claiming to be 'ehyeh asher ehyeh' or the 'ehyeh' of ex.3:14.....when 'ego eimi' is indicating that he is the one being referred to (I am he.....the one Abraham foresaw)...or indicating his pre-existence before Abraham's birth in the mind and plan of God. Other people have used to term 'ego eimi' to identify themselves in the NT....this does not mean they were claiming to be God.
~*~*~
See: John 8:58 and the other "I am" statements of Jesus & here.
pj
Freelight is a "Urantia Book" follower. He isn't a Christian, but a
UFO Cultist. He will be at the judgment seat of God and be judged
by his works, and cast into "The Lake of Fire" if he doesn't get
saved. He rejects this truth at this time in his life.
Freelight, you warned me in a whining "Neg-rep" that I best stop
telling lies about you! First of all, you don't own this forum.
Secondly, I'm not telling any lies. Anyone can Google: "The Urantia
Book" is a UFO cult. And, there you go.
telling lies about you! First of all, you don't own this forum.
Secondly, I'm not telling any lies. Anyone can Google: "The Urantia
Book" is a UFO cult. And, there you go.
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Seems like you don't have a "Proverbial leg to stand on!"
FL, You're NOT a "True Believer." Your "Cult" stole several Scripture verses
from the Bible and incorporated them into "The Urantia Book," to give it
some validity. The rest of the book is collection of fantasy, mysticism, and
Science Fiction. Much like Scientology!
I'm just trying to "WARN" posters what they're dealing with!
from the Bible and incorporated them into "The Urantia Book," to give it
some validity. The rest of the book is collection of fantasy, mysticism, and
Science Fiction. Much like Scientology!
I'm just trying to "WARN" posters what they're dealing with!
Just in case they "Mistake" you or Caino for "Real Christians.
- Status