If you don't believe in the trinity...

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daqq

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Good post friend, but they will not understand it.

Hi keypurr, regarding that post there are seven dips or plunges in the one immersion as revealed through the Prophet Elisha when he tells the leper Naaman to go dip or "plunge" seven times in the Jordan River. These seven dips or plunges are also symbolized in the traditional seven steps into the Jewish mikvah which tradition still exists to this day.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 KJV
1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Exodus 15:6-12 KJV
6. Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
7. And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.
8. And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9. The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
10. Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
11. Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
12. Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.


The Sea is the Sea of Reeds, (Yam Cuwph) which although it be a literal place surely is written as symbolic typology for future generations as Paul likewise teaches. Yeshua himself undergoes this immersion also, but it is on dry land because it is symbolic, and he does so when the Father calls His Son out of Egypt, (a symbolic passing through the Sea of Reeds). In fact Yeshua undergoes all seven immersions, which are one, because they are also likened to seven symbolic dips or plunges of immersion in the Yarden River, 2 Kings 5:14, where "seven dips" may also be understood as "seven strokes", sheba` pa`miym, which have a connection to the seven strokes of the sprinkling of the blood in the Atonement ceremonies of Leviticus 16 and the seven strokes of Revelation 15:1 which are not the orges-angry-wrath of Elohim but rather the thumos-passion-fury of Elohim, (there is a critical difference if you study how orges and thumos are employed in their contexts).

Seven plunges of the one immersion:
1) The Reed Sea : the Exodus : Hosea 11:1 : Matthew 2:15
2-3-4) Three plunges at Yarden under Yochanan the Immerser
5) Forty Days fasting and the temptation-testing under the Satan
6) The Cloud of YHWH at the Transfiguration : Luke 9:34-35 : Nahum 1:3
7) Golgotha : Matthew 20:22-23 : Mark 10:38-39 : Luke 12:50

Originally then the three Synoptic Gospel accounts most likely recorded three separate "plunges" at the immersion of Yeshua, with three separate statements that have now been conflated, (note likewise that there are similar statements from the Father made at the Transfiguration event wherein one account the Father calls Yeshua not His Beloved but His Chosen One). The symbolic seven steps of the mikvah were also at one time witnessed in the book of Acts but have somehow found their way out of what most now call their canon. No doubt the statement was found to have been "too Jewish" by the early Romish church but likewise also it would surely have disrupted the newly forming "Eternal Son" doctrine which was emerging in the early stages of cultus trinitarius. :crackup:

Acts 12:1-10 Codex Bezae Translation
Now about that time Herod the king put forth his hands to afflict certain of the Church in Judaea. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And when he saw that his laying hands upon the faithful pleased the Jews, he proceeded to seize Peter also. And those were the days of unleavened bread. And when he had taken him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to guard him; intending after the Passover to bring him forth to the people. Peter therefore was kept in the prison: but much prayer in earnestness about him was made by the church to God about him. And when Herod was about to bring him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and guards before the door were keeping the prison. And behold an angel of the Lord stood by Peter, and a light shined in the cell; and he nudged Peter on the side, and awoke him, saying, Rise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands. And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And he did so. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee and follow me. And he went out and followed; and he wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; for he thought he saw a vision. And when they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth into the city, which opened to them of its own accord, and they went out, and went down the seven steps, and passed on through one street; and straightway the angel departed from him.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/bezae-acts.html

The above "seven steps" are the symbolism of the seven steps into the mikvah. This is the commencement of the conversion of Simon Peter prophesied through Yeshua in Luke 22:31-33 and John 21:15-19 and, thus, makes the Acts 12:1-10 passage utterly supernal in meaning. :)

A outward drama of a inward process, Mosses and Joshua played out the same type of play, Moses being like John (both first born of the flesh) Matt 11:11 in relation to to promised land/Heaven Numbers 27:12-12. Jesus/Joshua enter the promised/Heaven as leaders of the sheep/Divine thoughts.

Hi Zeke, well said imo, but even moreso than what you have said the Ohel-Tent of Meeting in the Septuagint was originally the personal "Tent" of Moshe the man of Elohim. Yhoshua-Yeshua the Son of Perpetuity never went out of the Tent which is again supernal typology now having been misunderstood and-or altered by the Masoretes:

Exodus 33:7-11 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
7. And Moses took his tabernacle and pitched it without the camp, at a distance from the camp; and it was called the Tabernacle of Testimony: and it came to pass that every one that sought the Lord went forth to the tabernacle which was without the camp.
8. And whenever Moses went into the tabernacle without the camp, all the people stood every one watching by the doors of his tent; and when Moses departed, they took notice until he entered into the tabernacle.
9. And when Moses entered into the tabernacle, the pillar of the cloud descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and God talked to Moses.
10. And all the people saw the pillar of the cloud standing by the door of the tabernacle, and all the people stood and worshipped every one at the door of his tent.
11. And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as if one should speak to his friend; and he retired into the camp: but his servant Joshua the son of Naue, a young man, departed not forth from the tabernacle.

http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/33.htm
 

aikido7

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Banned
No.

You are deleting theology that has always been present.
It was not present during Jesus' ministry. You are looking back in time and attributing a later theology onto the past.

Again, the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible.





Jesus replies to a scribe who knows the Hebrew and its implications.
Okay. What meaning are your modern sensibilities bringing to this opinion? You seem to have a sense that you can read this particular scribe's mind and heart. That is a historical impossibility.







God has always revealed Himself as Triune.
I understand the theology that characterizes the divine in such a three-part manner. But it is theology that comes from men. Theology is a subjective mediation of the sacred.






Its juxtaposed next to the term 'monad'...
What are you specifically saying here?






This is the claim of God...not mine..
Again, God is not shown anywhere in the Bible as saying the word "Trinity."
By claiming otherwise is adding TO the words of the Bible.
 

Apple7

New member
It was not present during Jesus' ministry.

Moses was Trinitarian.



You are looking back in time and attributing a later theology onto the past.

Nope.



Again, the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible.

Its right next to the word 'monad'.



Okay. What meaning are your modern sensibilities bringing to this opinion? You seem to have a sense that you can read this particular scribe's mind and heart. That is a historical impossibility.

Scribes are the ones given the task of preserving the scriptures.

Thus, they are usually the ones most familiar with the material.





I understand the theology that characterizes the divine in such a three-part manner. But it is theology that comes from men. Theology is a subjective mediation of the sacred.

God has always revealed Himself as Triune...even in the OT.




Again, God is not shown anywhere in the Bible as saying the word "Trinity."

He doesn't use the word 'monad' either...
 

OCTOBER23

New member
The Trinity is Baloney.

God and JESUS combined their spirits and sent down the MIND OF CHRIST
into our hearts crying Aba Father.

QUESTION: Why can you NOT BLASPHEME THE HOLY SPIRIT.

ANSWER: Because it is a Combination of BOTH OF THEM !!!
 

Danoh

New member
The Trinity is Baloney.

God and JESUS combined their spirits and sent down the MIND OF CHRIST
into our hearts crying Aba Father.

QUESTION: Why can you NOT BLASPHEME THE HOLY SPIRIT.

ANSWER: Because it is a Combination of BOTH OF THEM !!!

Where in Scripture does it say we have the mind of Christ?

I know I certainly haven't a passage asserting we have said mind.
 

daqq

Well-known member
The one Triune God as revealed in the Holy Bible.

Your avatar, (the famous Trinitarian war shield, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutum_Fidei, known as the "Scutum Fidei") does not portray a "Triune God" so much as you would like to believe but rather clearly defines three Godheads surrounding a greater "Deus", (God) in the center of the shield. And therefore I asked, WHO is the "Deus" in the center of your avatar because it is clearly neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit; and invariably, and ultimately, the "God" in the center always ends up becoming the bearer of the war shield. :)

Jesus replies to a scribe who knows the Hebrew and its implications.

Perhaps you are ignoring the reply from the same Scribe in the same passage:

Mark 12:32-34 ASV
32. And the scribe said unto him, Of a truth, Teacher, thou hast well said that he is one; [heis] and there is none other but he:
33. and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is much more than all whole burnt-offerings and sacrifices.
34. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


The Scribe here uses "heis" which can be understood as ONE-ONLY-ALONE in this instance as it is likewise employed in another place previous to this in the Gospel of Mark:

Mark 2:7 Transliterated Unaccented
7. "Ti houtos houtos lalei? Blasfemei! Tis dunatai afienai hamartias ei-me heis ho Theos?"


Mark 2:7 ASV
7. Why doth this man thus speak? he blasphemeth: who can forgive sins but one, even God?

Mark 2:7 KJV
7. Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Mark 2:7 RSV (Revised Standard Version)
7. "Why does this man speak thus? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
Moses was Trinitarian.
Yes and Jesus was a Republican. We're all allowed our own theology, I guess.





Thus, they [the Scribes] are usually the ones most familiar with the material.
I go with Jesus. Remember, he spoke with "authority, not as the scribes."







God has always revealed Himself as Triune...even in the OT.
Sure. In the Hebrew Bible, God said "I am Triune." Now where was that verse again?
 

Apple7

New member
Your avatar, (the famous Trinitarian war shield, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutum_Fidei, known as the "Scutum Fidei") does not portray a "Triune God" so much as you would like to believe but rather clearly defines three Godheads surrounding a greater "Deus", (God) in the center of the shield. And therefore I asked, WHO is the "Deus" in the center of your avatar because it is clearly neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit; and invariably, and ultimately, the "God" in the center always ends up becoming the bearer of the war shield. :)

Even your googled wiki makes no mention of your commentary.

The Trinity Shield is an epithet for the sum total of scripture....and even your link summarizes the 12 deity combos.

Its pure logic at its best.

Your task would be to come forth with ANY Biblical verse which you feel somehow thwarts this.

Oh...and good luck on that....:)
 

Apple7

New member
Perhaps you are ignoring the reply from the same Scribe in the same passage:

Mark 12:32-34 ASV
32. And the scribe said unto him, Of a truth, Teacher, thou hast well said that he is one; [heis] and there is none other but he:
33. and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is much more than all whole burnt-offerings and sacrifices.
34. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.


The Scribe here uses "heis" which can be understood as ONE-ONLY-ALONE in this instance as it is likewise employed in another place previous to this in the Gospel of Mark:

Mark 2:7 Transliterated Unaccented
7. "Ti houtos houtos lalei? Blasfemei! Tis dunatai afienai hamartias ei-me heis ho Theos?"


Mark 2:7 ASV
7. Why doth this man thus speak? he blasphemeth: who can forgive sins but one, even God?

Mark 2:7 KJV
7. Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Mark 2:7 RSV (Revised Standard Version)
7. "Why does this man speak thus? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"


And...?

Don't you yet know what the Trinity is?

Looks like you are fighting a strawman of your very own creation...
 

daqq

Well-known member
And...?

Don't you yet know what the Trinity is?

Looks like you are fighting a strawman of your very own creation...

You yourself do not even know what you mean by Trinity. I just read in another thread where you said, "Jesus is YHWH" and that alone tells me that you have no understanding of the scripture. Have you never read Torah, Deuteronomy 32:6, Isaiah 63:16-19, or Jeremiah 3:1-19? YHWH is clearly the Father in many passages and in Jeremiah 3:4, and again in Jeremiah 3:19, He even states emphatically that He wishes for His people to call Him, "my Father", and one cannot even be placed among His sons if the same will not do so according to that same passage. Have you never heard of Bar-Jesus son of Jesus the word sorcerer? If you say "Jesus is YHWH", and you have, then that makes you a Bar-Jesus son of Jesus word sorcerer, because YHWH is the Father, and you have made them the same "person", (and how on earth is that Trinitarianism?). I do not need a strawman because you have already slit your own proverbial throat. :chuckle:
 

Danoh

New member
1 Corinthians 2:16

My apology for my intentionally vague question: I asked it that way hoping you might think on it a bit beyond what the wisdom of men as a tradition not only continues to teach, but continues able to when one is unaware one is being taught an off-base tradition, because there is a great deal to have to sort out, as a result of the wisdom of men, parroted down through the centuries.

What I'd meant was; where in Scripture does it say we have the mind of Christ.

The Apostle Paul is asserting there that the Mind of Christ on the things of God had been given to his spirit by the Spirit of God,.

He relates this there in 1 Cor. 2 and into 1 Cor. 3; where he also relates that the Corinthians did not posses said Mind of Christ on the things of God.

The Apostle Paul's mind there is the Mind of Christ on the things of God given to Paul's mind; to his spirit, by the Spirit of God, for him to write about.

All we have as to said Mind of Christ is His written Word.

Romans 15:

15. Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

1 Corinthians 14:

37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Colossians 3:

16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

And "whatsoever is not of faith is sin," Rom. 14:23.

So, don't take my word for it, nor, to appease me.
 

Apple7

New member
Yes and Jesus was a Republican. We're all allowed our own theology, I guess.

Moses wrote about a Triune God, therefore He must be Trinitarian.



I go with Jesus. Remember, he spoke with "authority, not as the scribes."

Anyone who knows their scriptures, knows that the God of the Bible is Triune.





Sure. In the Hebrew Bible, God said "I am Triune." Now where was that verse again?

Its juxtaposed to where He says that He is a 'monad'.
 

achduke

Active member
So you are saying the same thing that I said. You are saying that people can praise Jesus, look up to him and give him honor without believing in the trinity. No problem there. What you can't do is worship Jesus as God unless you believe in the trinity.

Where Christ is, God is. It does not take a trinity to see God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Revelation 3:1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 4:5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God

Revelation 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits
 

Apple7

New member
You yourself do not even know what you mean by Trinity.

Yes, I do.




I just read in another thread where you said, "Jesus is YHWH" and that alone tells me that you have no understanding of the scripture. Have you never read Torah, Deuteronomy 32:6, Isaiah 63:16-19, or Jeremiah 3:1-19? YHWH is clearly the Father in many passages and in Jeremiah 3:4, and again in Jeremiah 3:19, He even states emphatically that He wishes for His people to call Him, "my Father", and one cannot even be placed among His sons if the same will not do so according to that same passage. Have you never heard of Bar-Jesus son of Jesus the word sorcerer? If you say "Jesus is YHWH", and you have, then that makes you a Bar-Jesus son of Jesus word sorcerer, because YHWH is the Father, and you have made them the same "person", (and how on earth is that Trinitarianism?). I do not need a strawman because you have already slit your own proverbial throat.

So...

You decided to dwell upon Jeremiah scripture regarding God The Father....and?

Why did you skip the very into to Jeremiah (1.2, 4, 11, 13; 2.1, 4, 31; 6.10; 7.2, etc) in which ‘də·ḇar Yahweh’ (The Word of Yahweh...i.e. The Son) is mentioned?
 

daqq

Well-known member
You decided to dwell upon Jeremiah scripture regarding God The Father....and?

Why did you skip the very into to Jeremiah (1.2, 4, 11, 13; 2.1, 4, 31; 6.10; 7.2, etc) in which ‘də·ḇar Yahweh’ (The Word of Yahweh...i.e. The Son) is mentioned?

Why would you distract from the passages I quoted and try to dilute the point which was made if you truly believe the scripture? Do you expect me to quote all of Jeremiah when we all can go read it for ourselves? This is what people do when they discuss the scripture in a forum setting. What do any of the passages you bring up have to do with YHWH desiring for His people to call Him "my Father"? Do you not think that Yeshua as Messiah would need to comply with these passages? And if not then who does Yeshua pray to in all of the Gospel accounts if he himself is YHWH? Who does he call his heavenly Father in all of the Gospel accounts if he himself is YHWH? The Father is clearly YHWH in the passages I quoted to you:

Deuteronomy 32:6 KJV Restored Name
32:6 Do ye thus requite YHWH, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/de32.htm

Isaiah 63:16-19 KJV Restored Name
63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
63:17 O YHWH, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
63:18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
63:19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/isa63.htm

Jeremiah 3:1-4 KJV Restored Name
3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith YHWH
3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
3:4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/jere03.htm

Jeremiah 3:17-19 KJV Restored Name
3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of YHWH; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of YHWH, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
3:19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, [baniym-sons] and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/jere03.htm

You ignore the will of the Father in these passages, pretend that Messiah does not honor these passages by calling YHWH his own heavenly Father throughout the Gospel accounts, then you change the Son into the Father like a Bar-Jesus son of Jesus the word sorcerer so that you can override and eliminate the Father and His Torah-Tanach Word from your mind. You are not even a traditional Trinitarian according to the Trtinitarians themselves but rather called by them a heretic because your doctrine has now slipped into what they call the Oneness Doctrine. And so soon likewise it has come to pass exactly as was already said to you right here in this thread: the bearer of the shield has become the greater fourth "Deus" in the center of the war shield while the three Godheads roundabout him are made subservient to the will of the bearer of the shield. Am I now a prophet or is your genos simply that predictable? I certainly am no prophet! :crackup:

:sheep:
 
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