ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[Danoh]

You don't even know who the "twain" are.

Neither do you - his hybrid vs yours :chuckle:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Neither do you - his hybrid vs yours :chuckle:

IP is in agreement with you, the standard Jew/Gentile...easy mistake to make.

 

[Danoh]

IP is in agreement with you, the standard Jew/Gentile...easy mistake to make.

Yours is the mistake.

Because you miss a step during your word studies.

You'll recall you skirted addressing that the two times I asked you what your process is - and, yeah - Oh. :chuckle:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Yours is the mistake.

Nah. I'm right.

 

[Danoh]

Nah. I'm right.

:chuckle:

 

[Lighthouse]

Paul was called as an apostle. He preached first to the Gentiles. It was decided later to go far away to the Gentiles.

Is that an answer?

I believe in God designed "dispensations" or as I have taught and believe, that "administrations" is a better term.

But I believe this age of grace began on the day of Pentecost as Acts 2:1-4 ... describe.

You left this inside of the quote tags.

They are two distinct groups of people.

Exactly.

God desires that His people believe him as Abraham, as a prime example did.

Abraham did not keep the law, for there was no law of Moses at his time.

Many who "kept the law" were going through the motions, but did not have the heart of love to God.

They did not love God from the heart, as Abraham, David, Samuel, Hannah, Esther did.

Not the issue here.

Not all Israel was Israel. The Israel that God was involved with, ie, dynamically part of their lives, were the individuals who believed God.

Still not the issue.

Isaac was not under the law either, he and his father were Gentiles, Israel.

Abraham and Isaac were before Israel, as Israel began with Isaac's son: Israel [formerly Jacob].

Jesus came to do away with the purification/ceremonial works.

Those are the things Jesus fulfilled.

The law that said to do various external washings---that was a teaching tool, a shadow of what was coming. It is about Jesus. Since Jesus, he washes us once and for all.

The law that said to observe special days---that was a teaching tool, a shadow of Jesus. All those special days are about Jesus. We observe Jesus all day every day. Observing special days is now worthless.

The law that said to sacrifice animals, to use their blood---that was a teaching tool about Jesus. Jesus is the Lamb of God and Jesus' blood takes away sins once and for all.

Jesus came; he circumcises our hearts with the Holy Spirit. Circumcision in the flesh is now just mutilation of the flesh.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The whole law was about him. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men

By believing and obeying Jesus, true Christians obey Moses, for we have a tent, a temple, our bodies are that temple, and we have the blood to atone for our sins, because Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb.

The earthly temple had rules and regulations, but they were just an earthy replica of WHAT IS IN HEAVEN.

We do not go to a mere man as our high priest...Jesus is our High Priest.

And yet Abraham had to circumcise his son...:think:

P.S.
No one is currently under the Law if they are in Christ.

 

[Interplanner]

Is that an answer?


You left this inside of the quote tags.


Exactly.


Not the issue here.


Still not the issue.


Abraham and Isaac were before Israel, as Israel began with Isaac's son: Israel [formerly Jacob].


And yet Abraham had to circumcise his son...:think:

P.S.
No one is currently under the Law if they are in Christ.

Your 'yet Abraham...' is a total jump from the NT period to pre-law. Are you always doing anachronistic games?

 

[Lighthouse]

Your 'yet Abraham...' is a total jump from the NT period to pre-law. Are you always doing anachronistic games?

I am not at all surprised you don't get the point. And also, that was not directed to you.

 

[God's Truth]

Is that an answer?

Paul was called as an apostle. He preached first to the JEWS, not Gentiles. It was decided later to go far away to the Gentiles. It was decided he go to the Gentiles, not because he had another gospel, but because the Jews didn't trust him.

You left this inside of the quote tags.


Exactly.


Not the issue here.


Still not the issue.


Abraham and Isaac were before Israel, as Israel began with Isaac's son: Israel [formerly Jacob].


And yet Abraham had to circumcise his son...:think:

P.S.
No one is currently under the Law if they are in Christ.

Circumcision is the sign and seal of the law that was to come. Abraham had to get circumcised and he also sacrificed animals to God, as did all before the law as given to Moses. The scriptures show that Abel gave animal sacrifices, Noah did, and Job did too. Abraham obeyed all of God's requirements, commands, decrees and laws. See Genesis 26:4-5.

God spoke of a new covenant He would make with all and it would not require circumcision and sacrifices, it would require faith.

 

[Lighthouse]

Paul was called as an apostle. He preached first to the JEWS, not Gentiles. It was decided later to go far away to the Gentiles. It was decided he go to the Gentiles, not because he had another gospel, but because the Jews didn't trust him.

Scripture?

Circumcision is the sign and seal of the law that was to come. Abraham had to get circumcised and he also sacrificed animals to God, as did all before the law as given to Moses. The scriptures show that Abel gave animal sacrifices, Noah did, and Job did too. Abraham obeyed all of God's requirements, commands, decrees and laws. See Genesis 26:4-5.

God spoke of a new covenant He would make with all and it would not require circumcision and sacrifices, it would require faith.

And you've completely missed the point.

 

[God's Truth]

Scripture?

Read here where Paul gets saved.

Acts 22:12 “A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13 He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.


Now read here where Ananias tells Paul that God has chosen Paul to be taught by Jesus the gospel to preach to all.

14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Read here how Jesus tells Paul to leave Jerusalem because the people there, the Jews, would not accept Paul's testimony about Jesus.

17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking to me. ‘Quick!’ he said. ‘Leave Jerusalem immediately, because the people here will not accept your testimony about me.’

This is important, read here now how Paul says the Jews know that he imprisoned and beat those who believed in Jesus. Paul acknowledges that the Jews do NOT trust Paul and they think that he is trying to trick them into saying they believe in Jesus so that Paul could have them imprisoned and beat too.

19 “‘Lord,’ I replied, ‘these people know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you. 20 And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’

21 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ ”

See how Jesus says he is sending Paul far away to the Gentiles. Jesus is NOT sending Paul far away to the Gentiles to give them a different gospel, he is sending him far away to the Gentiles because the Jews are trying to kill him.

And you've completely missed the point.

Well why didn't you tell me what I misunderstood?

 

[Danoh]

Paul was called as an apostle. He preached first to the JEWS, not Gentiles. It was decided later to go far away to the Gentiles. It was decided he go to the Gentiles, not because he had another gospel, but because the Jews didn't trust him...

Nope - Paul had a fully up and running, very thriving "Grace alone" ministry "far hence" among the Gentiles - not only before Acts 13, but for several decades way before even near the end of Acts.

 

[God's Truth]

Nope - Paul had a fully up and running, very thriving "Grace alone" ministry "far hence" among the Gentiles - not only before Acts 13, but for several decades way before even near the end of Acts.

I already gave the scripture and proved it.

 

[Danoh]

I already gave the scripture and proved it.

Comparing your findings with mine, as I was reading your post on that, I was thinking 'I wonder if she recalls another time - decades earlier in Acts - way earlier in Paul's ministry, and wherein he had also gone far hence unto Gentiles, when his life had been in danger back then also?'

In the spirit Proverbs 27:17, GT

 

[God's Truth]

Comparing your findings with mine, as I was reading your post on that, I was thinking 'I wonder if she recalls another time - decades earlier in Acts - way earlier in Paul's ministry, and wherein he had also gone far hence unto Gentiles, when his life had been in danger back then also?'

Give the exact scripture.

In the spirit Proverbs 27:17, GT

That is for sure.

 

[Danoh]

Give the exact scripture.



That is for sure.

The Apostle Paul's "far hence" "Grace alone" ministry among the Gentiles before Acts 13, and decades way before the end of Acts.

Spoiler

Acts 9:28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem. 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

So his life in danger, off he goes far hence from Jerusalem.

Where?

Tarsus?

Where is that? Cilicia.

Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Note...

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

What did he do while he was far hence in the regions of Syria and (Tarsus in) Cilicia?

Remember this?

Acts 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

What did Barnabas find when he went off in to those regions far hence for to seek Saul?

I'll get to that in a sec.

Remember this?

Acts 14:26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. 14:28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Now notice what we find out about what Paul had been up to in the regions of Syria and Cilicia he had headed for back in Acts 9.

After the problem at Acts 15 is settled, we read this...

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Who?

Gentiles.

Where?

In Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember I asked what did Barnabas find when he went for to seek Saul to bring him back to Antioch?

15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.

They get into an argument (lol) and then we read this...

15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Gentiles who had been won over by Paul back in Acts 9; and who had not submitted to the Law and or Circumcision.

For again, the issue had been...

Acts 14:26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. 14:28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

 

[God's Truth]

The Apostle Paul's "far hence" "Grace alone" ministry among the Gentiles before Acts 13, and decades way before the end of Acts.

Spoiler

Acts 9:28 And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem. 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him. 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus. 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

So his life in danger, off he goes far hence from Jerusalem.

Where?

Tarsus?

Where is that? Cilicia.

Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Note...

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 1:21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ: 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

What did he do while he was far hence in the regions of Syria and (Tarsus in) Cilicia?

Remember this?

Acts 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

What did Barnabas find when he went off in to those regions far hence for to seek Saul?

I'll get to that in a sec.

Remember this?

Acts 14:26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. 14:28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

Now notice what we find out about what Paul had been up to in the regions of Syria and Cilicia he had headed for back in Acts 9.

After the problem at Acts 15 is settled, we read this...

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

Who?

Gentiles.

Where?

In Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember I asked what did Barnabas find when he went for to seek Saul to bring him back to Antioch?

15:36 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.

They get into an argument (lol) and then we read this...

15:40 And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.

Gentiles who had been won over by Paul back in Acts 9; and who had not submitted to the Law and or Circumcision.

For again, the issue had been...

Acts 14:26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. 14:28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

You have NOT nullified the scriptures I gave you about Jesus sending Paul far away to the Gentiles because the Jews wanted to kill him.

Read Acts 9.

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”


Did you read that?
Jesus SAYS Paul is Jesus' chosen instrument to proclaim his name to GENTILES and to ISRAEL.

It is the SAME one and only gospel.

The Apostles to the Lamb were not taught by a mere man either!
They were taught by Jesus the Holy Spirit.
Paul saying no man taught him is about Paul confirming he is an apostle just like the other apostles, even though he acknowledges that he was unnaturally born. That is about how he got saved and taught later, after Jesus' death and resurrection.

The scriptures say that the Jews even talked about how Paul was preaching the SAME faith that he used to go against.

Paul was sent far away to the Gentiles because the Jews did not trust Paul and wanted to kill him. The Gentiles are called the far away ones, because they were far away from God.

Though the gospel did not include preaching circumcision anymore and animal sacrifices, Jesus told the apostles to do what the Pharisees and Teachers of the law said, for they enforced the old law as long as the earthly temple was still standing.

Peter was afraid of the Jews because he knew that they would kill him for associating with the uncircumcised Gentiles. That is why Paul said he is acting out of line with the truth, for the gospel they both taught are that all are clean without circumcision.

 

[God's Truth]

The Apostle Paul's "far hence" "Grace alone" ministry among the Gentiles before Acts 13, and decades way before the end of Acts.

Jesus says BEFORE Paul was saved that Paul would be a preacher to Gentiles AND ISRAEL.

There are not two gospels.

If there are two different gospels, why was Peter acting OUT OF LINE with the truth when he would no longer associate with the uncircumcised Gentiles? Why was he AFRAID of the Jews? By the way, those are educated questions, for I already know the answer and I want you to think about it.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus says BEFORE Paul was saved that Paul would be a preacher to Gentiles AND ISRAEL.

There are not two gospels.

That is true. There are MANY gospels.

 

[Danoh]

Jesus says BEFORE Paul was saved that Paul would be a preacher to Gentiles AND ISRAEL.

There are not two gospels.

If there are two different gospels, why was Peter acting OUT OF LINE with the truth when he would no longer associate with the uncircumcised Gentiles? Why was he AFRAID of the Jews? By the way, those are educated questions, for I already know the answer and I want you to think about it.

So if Paul ran into an Israelite after the end of Acts; he would not have preached to him?

And besides, in his first letters (Galatians and 1 Thessalonians) he is already depicting Unbelieving Israelites as spiritual UnCircumcision, or heathen.

And he reminds Peter in Gal. 2, that the Law had concluded Israel no better off than "sinners of the Gentiles."

Likewise is the case at the end of both Acts 7 and Romans 2 and into Romans 3.

The very thing Peter learned in Acts 10.

And again, the fact of the matter is that as I showed you in the post you are responding to; Paul already had a far hence Gentile ministry in between Acts 9 and Acts 11.

Your mistake is the same taking of a word and or phrase a bit too literally, that those who assert your later in Acts view also take too literally.

Proverbs 27:17.