ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

God's Truth

God's Truth

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Lighthouse said:
But was it newer than the New Covenant in Christ's blood?
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Jesus came and preached the new guidelines for the new covenant, and then he shed his blood for the new covenant.

Blood must be shed for the covenant. See Exodus 24 for more information on this.

Blood covenants must be followed exactly.
Lighthouse said:
Then why did Peter have the vision in Acts 10?
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Jesus told the disciples many things and it took time and revelation to give them understanding.

Lighthouse said:
Why was Paul called to be an apostle to the Gentiles at all?
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Paul said he was called to show how the worst of sinners can be forgiven.

He first preached to the Jews, but the Jews did not trust him, they thought he was trying to trick them into saying they believe in Jesus just so he could throw them in jail and have them tortured and killed.
So Jesus sent Paul far away to the Gentiles.
 
God's Truth

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Right Divider said:
Why were the rules different for Gentiles?
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While the earthly temple was still standing, the Pharisees and teachers of the law sat in Moses seat and Jesus said to do what they said. Jesus also said it would be destroyed. The Pharisees tried to persecute the Jews who did not follow the law.

Matthew 23:1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Matthew 24:2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

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God's Truth said:
While the earthly temple was still standing, the Pharisees and teachers of the law sat in Moses seat and Jesus said to do what they said. Jesus also said it would be destroyed. The Pharisees tried to persecute the Jews who did not follow the law.

Matthew 23:1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Matthew 24:2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
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When those rules were given, the temple was still standing.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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Right Divider said:
If it's ALL under the "new covenant", why were the gentiles given DIFFERENT rules to follow?
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They were not Jews and were not under the rule of the Pharisees.

There were many Jews who tried to make the Gentile Christians do what the Jews did by old law standard. The apostles teaching the New Covenant is eventually why all the apostles were punished by the Jews.

Galatians 5:11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.

Galatians 6:12
Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. They only do this to avoid persecution for the cross of Christ.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

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God's Truth said:
They were not Jews and were not under the rule of the Pharisees.

There were many Jews who tried to make the Gentile Christians do what the Jews did by old law standard. The apostles teaching the New Covenant is eventually why all the apostles were punished by the Jews.
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No, it was not.
 
Lighthouse

Lighthouse

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God's Truth said:
Jesus came and preached the new guidelines for the new covenant, and then he shed his blood for the new covenant.

Blood must be shed for the covenant. See Exodus 24 for more information on this.

Blood covenants must be followed exactly.
Click to expand...
Not the issue.

Try again.

Jesus told the disciples many things and it took time and revelation to give them understanding.
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Is your argument that Jesus had told Peter these things before the vision?

Paul said he was called to show how the worst of sinners can be forgiven.

He first preached to the Jews, but the Jews did not trust him, they thought he was trying to trick them into saying they believe in Jesus just so he could throw them in jail and have them tortured and killed.
So Jesus sent Paul far away to the Gentiles.
Click to expand...
So Paul wasn't initially called as the apostle to the Gentiles?
 
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God's Truth

God's Truth

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Lighthouse said:
Not the issue.

Try again.


Is you argument that Jesus had told Peter these things before the vision?


So Paul wasn't initially called as the apostle to the Gentiles?
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Paul was called as an apostle. He preached first to the Gentiles. It was decided later to go far away to the Gentiles.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
Lighthouse said:
"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
-Romans 4:16

I believe in God designed "dispensations" or as I have taught and believe, that "administrations" is a better term.

But I believe this age of grace began on the day of Pentecost as Acts 2:1-4 ... describe.

If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?
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They are two distinct groups of people.

God desires that His people believe him as Abraham, as a prime example did.

Abraham did not keep the law, for there was no law of Moses at his time.

Many who "kept the law" were going through the motions, but did not have the heart of love to God.

They did not love God from the heart, as Abraham, David, Samuel, Hannah, Esther did.

Not all Israel was Israel. The Israel that God was involved with, ie, dynamically part of their lives, were the individuals who believed God.

Isaac was not under the law either, he and his father were Gentiles, Israel.
 
I

Interplanner

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oatmeal said:
They are two distinct groups of people.

God desires that His people believe him as Abraham, as a prime example did.

Abraham did not keep the law, for there was no law of Moses at his time.

Many who "kept the law" were going through the motions, but did not have the heart of love to God.

They did not love God from the heart, as Abraham, David, Samuel, Hannah, Esther did.

Not all Israel was Israel. The Israel that God was involved with, ie, dynamically part of their lives, were the individuals who believed God.

Isaac was not under the law either, he and his father were Gentiles, Israel.
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Perhaps this will help: God always wanted the obedience of (inspired by) faith, and the Gospel was expressed since Gen 3. But God added the law as a nanny, schoolmaster, tutor, to obedience, even though knowing it was not going to last down the stretch. It did help in the context of the raw paganism of Canaan, to make them distinct. But that is far gone as well. So the removal of its externals is not the big crash some think it is, and all the inner constraints of the law are preserved. Christ kept the whole law on our behalf, being the Obedient Son that all of us are supposed to be.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

New member
Lighthouse said:
"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
-Romans 4:16

If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?
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Jesus came to do away with the purification/ceremonial works.

Those are the things Jesus fulfilled.

The law that said to do various external washings---that was a teaching tool, a shadow of what was coming. It is about Jesus. Since Jesus, he washes us once and for all.

The law that said to observe special days---that was a teaching tool, a shadow of Jesus. All those special days are about Jesus. We observe Jesus all day every day. Observing special days is now worthless.

The law that said to sacrifice animals, to use their blood---that was a teaching tool about Jesus. Jesus is the Lamb of God and Jesus' blood takes away sins once and for all.

Jesus came; he circumcises our hearts with the Holy Spirit. Circumcision in the flesh is now just mutilation of the flesh.

Jesus fulfilled the law. The whole law was about him. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men

By believing and obeying Jesus, true Christians obey Moses, for we have a tent, a temple, our bodies are that temple, and we have the blood to atone for our sins, because Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb.

The earthly temple had rules and regulations, but they were just an earthy replica of WHAT IS IN HEAVEN.

We do not go to a mere man as our high priest...Jesus is our High Priest.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Lighthouse wrote:
If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?




The Jews only were under the law at that time. The text has to be read in terms of what was true at that time.

This is why "now" in Christ, Eph 2 exults in the two being made one in Christ.
 
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