ECT If MAD is False Why Did Paul Make the Distinction in Romans 4:16?

[Interplanner]

Where does the NT cancel out land promises?

by history and by unnecessity! The fulfillment of all promises in the resurrection of Christ is entirely portable and transcultural, Acts 13. There is no need for land for anything. There is no Davidic theocracy to be set up because that means all the sacrifice and worship system, which Paul confirmed is over with in his final in Acts 28. Everything Judaism still seeks in its worship system is to be found in the resurrection of Christ!

History = look what happened; it's rather obvious! But of course real history is off-limits to you; you'd rather have a para-historical belief, because you are the intelligent one.

 

[Danoh]

by history and by unnecessity! The fulfillment of all promises in the resurrection of Christ is entirely portable and transcultural, Acts 13. There is no need for land for anything. There is no Davidic theocracy to be set up because that means all the sacrifice and worship system, which Paul confirmed is over with in his final in Acts 28. Everything Judaism still seeks in its worship system is to be found in the resurrection of Christ!

History = look what happened; it's rather obvious! But of course real history is off-limits to you; you'd rather have a para-historical belief, because you are the intelligent one.

Now you sound somewhat like your own version of the ever foolish Acts 28ers.

Fact is that Paul's words in Acts 28 are no more the end of God's dealings with Israel than Paul's same pronouncement is in Acts 13 and Acts 18 about that same issue.

All Acts 28 is...is the end of Luke's narrative. Nothing less, nothing more...

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

by history and by unnecessity!

The promises of God to a certain people about a certain piece of land is not an "unnecessity"

 

[Nang]

The promises of God to a certain people about a certain piece of land is not an "unnecessity"

That promise was fulfilled long ago . . You need to move on, and grow spiritually.

You are stuck in a rut.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

That promise was fulfilled long ago . . You need to move on, and grow spiritually.

:chuckle:

 

[God's Truth]

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"
-Romans 4:16

If all were under the same dispensation why did Paul mention those who were of the law and also those who were of the faith of Abraham as though two distinct groups of people?

There is a New Covenant and Paul preached it.

Jesus came to earth and taught us the New Covenant and then he shed his blood on the cross for the New Covenant.

 

[Right Divider]

The promises of God to a certain people about a certain piece of land is not an "unnecessity"

:thumb:

 

[Interplanner]

:thumb:

There is nothing in the doctrine of Messiah and his salvation that 'needs' to be in a certain land! You guys have so little comprehension. The Christian message is entirely portable and transcultural; it is never stuck in one placle or land.

How can you possibly read hebrews with its replacement of the old covenant and think there is any necessity of doing things in the land again? How can you know NT history with the total destruction of the land in 66-72 as the fulfillment of what Christ said would happen and 'undo' it all?

Even if one generation of Israel set up in its land, how does that help the millions that missed it over the centuries? Once again this gets insidiously close to saying that Jews have some kind of 'soul' that is very similar to Christians' saved souls, and that they are going to be installed in their land while Christians will be in heaven, all of which is ludicrous. But that's what 2P2P is.

 

[Right Divider]

There is nothing in the doctrine of Messiah and his salvation that 'needs' to be in a certain land!

According to some that do know what the Bible says.

You guys have so little comprehension.

That beats your none.

The Christian message is entirely portable and transcultural; it is never stuck in one placle or land.

According to you and your lack of an entire Bible.

How can you possibly read hebrews with its replacement of the old covenant and think there is any necessity of doing things in the land again? How can you know NT history with the total destruction of the land in 66-72 as the fulfillment of what Christ said would happen and 'undo' it all?

Because:

• We know what God's promises are.
• We know that God is not a liar.

Even if one generation of Israel set up in its land, how does that help the millions that missed it over the centuries? Once again this gets insidiously close to saying that Jews have some kind of 'soul' that is very similar to Christians' saved souls, and that they are going to be installed in their land while Christians will be in heaven, all of which is ludicrous. But that's what 2P2P is.

Ezek 37:15-28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(37:15) ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, (37:16) Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions: (37:17) And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. (37:18) ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these? (37:19) Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. (37:20) ¶ And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. (37:21) And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (37:22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (37:23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (37:24) And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. (37:25) And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever. (37:26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. (37:27) My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (37:28) And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
​

What God promises; He delivers.

 

[Interplanner]

The things promised to David were fulfilled in Christ, that is why the clincher question in the Passover week: how then is he his son? You still don't get it.

Yes he is a physical descendnant, but all of the promises and expectations were about what was coming in the mission of the Gospel. That should be clear enough from Acts 15 on Amos 9, but don't read any 2P2Ps on that because they muck it all up.

"I give you the holy promises made to David" says Acts 13 quoting Isaiah 52 I think. This is in the same message where he declares that everything promised to the fathers has come in the resurrection.

This is why there is no Judaistic episode in the future; it doesn't need to be, to happen. There are no NT passages on things to come that have specific Judaistic details about a Davidic theocracy and temple and animal sacrifices and another episode of Judaism. All that is a fraud started by 2P2P. Which is not in the Bible.

 

[Right Divider]

The things promised to David were fulfilled in Christ, that is why the clincher question in the Passover week: how then is he his son? You still don't get it.

I do get it. It does not cancel the other promises that God made. You still don't get it.

Yes he is a physical descendnant, but all of the promises and expectations were about what was coming in the mission of the Gospel. That should be clear enough from Acts 15 on Amos 9, but don't read any 2P2Ps on that because they muck it all up.

More empty claims on your part.

Amos 9:11-15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:11) ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: (9:12) That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. (9:13) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. (9:14) And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. (9:15) And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God. ​

This WILL happen; it was NOT happened yet.

"I give you the holy promises made to David" says Acts 13 quoting Isaiah 52 I think. This is in the same message where he declares that everything promised to the fathers has come in the resurrection.

This is why there is no Judaistic episode in the future; it doesn't need to be, to happen. There are no NT passages on things to come that have specific Judaistic details about a Davidic theocracy and temple and animal sacrifices and another episode of Judaism. All that is a fraud started by 2P2P. Which is not in the Bible.

You are the fraud here. You are fake. You do not believe the Word of God.

 

[Interplanner]

Are you sure about Acts 15 because they said it was going on in front of them. It is not something they are waiting for.

You guys read an OT quote in the NT and you think it still about OUR future!!! LOL. He is telling us when it is fulfilled. that is the only meaningful reading of that passage in total.

If you were trying to resolve why the Gentiles were to be accepted on the same level, why would you pull out a prophecy about something X000 years in the future and then say 'see, we are equal and they are forgiven like us and there is no favoritism'. Instead, you say, 'too bad, you gentiles, for now, but in the millenium, everything will be fair--until it collapses at the end!'

2 days ago, RD, you said you were not a subscriber to 2P2P, but now that I call it a fraud, you call me a fraud. Go figure.

 

[Right Divider]

Are you sure about Acts 15 because they said it was going on in front of them. It is not something they are waiting for.

Why do you insist on make claims WITHOUT SUPPORT. You're just so full of your OWN opinions, I'm surprised that you have not exploded.

You guys read an OT quote in the NT and you think it still about OUR future!!! LOL. He is telling us when it is fulfilled. that is the only meaningful reading of that passage in total.

If it was fulfilled, it would ALL be fulfilled. You REINTERPRET everything to suit your bogus story.

If you were trying to resolve why the Gentiles were to be accepted on the same level, why would you pull out a prophecy about something X000 years in the future and then say 'see, we are equal and they are forgiven like us and there is no favoritism'. Instead, you say, 'too bad, you gentiles, for now, but in the millenium, everything will be fair--until it collapses at the end!'

Was it "fair" when God chose Israel and separated them from the rest of the people on the earth?

2 days ago, RD, you said you were not a subscriber to 2P2P, but now that I call it a fraud, you call me a fraud. Go figure.

I don't subscribe to YOUR perverted version of what YOU call "2P2P".

Did God separate Israel for a purpose or not?

 

[Interplanner]

Why do you insist on make claims WITHOUT SUPPORT. You're just so full of your OWN opinions, I'm surprised that you have not exploded.


If it was fulfilled, it would ALL be fulfilled. You REINTERPRET everything to suit your bogus story.


Was it "fair" when God chose Israel and separated them from the rest of the people on the earth?


I don't subscribe to YOUR perverted version of what YOU call "2P2P".

Did God separate Israel for a purpose or not?

Nothing separate from the Gospel, no. None of the shadow or copy things were meant to last forever. Judaism was not meant to be followed forever.

Re Acts 15 summary:
*ex-Pharisee believers insisted that believers keep practices from the law, ceremonial, dietary.
*Peter rejected the yoke that no one can bear; all are saved by grace
*James used Amos 9 to show that getting believers from among the Gentiles was the plan all along; that that incoming, or perhaps Christ himself, was the rebuilt fallen tent of David (Jn 1 says he 'tented' among us)
*only a few restrictions were placed on Gentiles.
*Everyone encouraged by the resolutions. And they were strengthened.
*It is not about 'millenial' events or some kind of eschatology
*The entry of gentiles into fellowship with Israel was known for ages and completed in Christ and his mission.

 

[Right Divider]

Nothing separate from the Gospel, no. None of the shadow or copy things were meant to last forever. Judaism was not meant to be followed forever.

Re Acts 15 summary:
*ex-Pharisee believers insisted that believers keep practices from the law, ceremonial, dietary.
*Peter rejected the yoke that no one can bear; all are saved by grace
*James used Amos 9 to show that getting believers from among the Gentiles was the plan all along; that that incoming, or perhaps Christ himself, was the rebuilt fallen tent of David (Jn 1 says he 'tented' among us)
*only a few restrictions were placed on Gentiles.
*Everyone encouraged by the resolutions. And they were strengthened.
*It is not about 'millenial' events or some kind of eschatology
*The entry of gentiles into fellowship with Israel was known for ages and completed in Christ and his mission.

Why were the rules different for Gentiles?

 

[Interplanner]

For the sake of those who were unbelieving gentiles. Light cannot fellowship with darkness.

Don't change the subject; to be honest that is the least question; you messed all the others up and should be talking about them.

 

[Right Divider]

For the sake of those who were unbelieving gentiles. Light cannot fellowship with darkness.

Don't change the subject; to be honest that is the least question; you messed all the others up and should be talking about them.

:ha: :rotfl:

 

[Interplanner]

Obviously they weren't going to impose all 613. They didn't impose circ. So it had to be meaningful in that culture. Why are you so flip about this?

 

[Lighthouse]

Care for a neighbor fulfills the law. He definitely didn't mean a bunch of Judaistic details.

There is a New Covenant and Paul preached it.

But was it newer than the New Covenant in Christ's blood?

Jesus came to earth and taught us the New Covenant and then he shed his blood on the cross for the New Covenant.

Then why did Peter have the vision in Acts 10? Why was Paul called to be an apostle to the Gentiles at all?

 

[Danoh]

Nothing separate from the Gospel, no. None of the shadow or copy things were meant to last forever. Judaism was not meant to be followed forever.

Re Acts 15 summary:
1-ex-Pharisee believers insisted that believers keep practices from the law, ceremonial, dietary.
2-Peter rejected the yoke that no one can bear; all are saved by grace
3-James used Amos 9 to show that getting believers from among the Gentiles was the plan all along; that that incoming, or perhaps Christ himself, was the rebuilt fallen tent of David (Jn 1 says he 'tented' among us)
4-only a few restrictions were placed on Gentiles.
5-Everyone encouraged by the resolutions. And they were strengthened.
6-It is not about 'millenial' events or some kind of eschatology
7-The entry of gentiles into fellowship with Israel was known for ages and completed in Christ and his mission.

I've numbered them each; that I might address them.

1-True.

2-True.

3-False - he quoted it to show that Gentiles being called of God was not in conflict with Scripture. That is not the same as concluding he was asserting said passage was being fulfilled in his day.

4-True - but towards not offending both Messianic Believers and any lost Jews they (Gentiles) might come in contact with - Paul himself restricted himself: when dealing with either. The same "give none offense" is the case, as to the latter of those two groups of Jews...today, that one "might win some" to Christ.

5-Tru - til the peace between both groups fell apart at Galatia.

6-False - you proved nothing.

7-False - James is unsure what is going on that the Gentiles are coming in before Israel's Prophesied rise first; but asserts that God knows; and that should be good enough for them.