ECT If MAD is False What Does Hebrews 6:4-6 Mean for Us?

[SimpleMan77]

Of course you do realize that the writer of Hebrews is pertaining to the HEBREWS, correct? He's not speaking to the Body of Christ (The Church)

While the book never says that, I'll concede that the writer expects his audience to be familiar with the Mosaic Law and history, so I won't argue.

However, that it was only "to the Hebrews" I disagree. It was written by either Paul (unlikely), or someone who was very influenced by him, whether directly or indirectly (through Timothy).

It was almost certainly written after the middle of the Book of Acts, and from what I think I know that MADism teaches, Paul and those he influenced only taught one Grace Gospel to Jews AND Gentiles after mid-Acts. So it's really to us either way.


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[SimpleMan77]

If MAD is False What Does Hebrews 6:4-6 Mean for Us?

1 John 1:9 KJV has nothing to do with us!

Actually it was written to the church generally, so it has more to do with us than a lot of books.

Galatians, however, wasn't written to us at all. Paul told us who his books were for.

Galatians 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:




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[SimpleMan77]

Here, Lighthouse's words a bit slower...just for you...

"...in this dispensation....once we are forgiven....that's it...He doesn't... repeatedly...forgive us...because He has...already...forgiven us...It's pointless...to keep giving us
..what...we already have."

Try your formula on it - repeat it a dozen times...real...slow...

:chuckle:

And… Not only did Paul think the person needed forgiveness, he said the following words about him.

2 Corinthians 2:10-11
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

In other words, this person who had previously been forgiven and saved, became unsaved and needed forgiveness for his terrible fornication.

The good news is that, according to Paul's account of it, God forgave him when he repented. These and other passages confirm that my earlier post on the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6 is correct


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[heir]

Actually it was written to the church generally, so it has more to do with us than a lot of books.

No, it was written to those who had an unction from the Holy one and need not any man teach them (1 John 2:20 KJV, 1 John 2:27 KJV) and in a tribulation context looking forward to the fountain being opened unto them for sin and uncleanness. That is who and what the passage is about entirely!

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 means exactly what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it. It is just not written to me for my obedience, nor anyone else in the dispensation of the grace of God. It's not our good news.

1 John 1:9 will happen in that day when a fountain is opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanness.

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
"That day" would be what many refer to as the second coming of the Lord (the Body of Christ has already been caught up to meet the Lord in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

This is in one accord with what Peter preached in Acts 3:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Act 3:19-21 has nothing to do with the Body of Christ. Israel looks forward to the blotting out of their sins. That's what it says. For that is God's covenant unto them when He shall take away their sins.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Israel looks forward to their sins being blotted out while we in the Body of Christ look back to the cross. We have already received the atonement.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Galatians, however, wasn't written to us at all. Paul told us who his books were for.

Galatians 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

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Although the Galatians were not the same kind of Gentiles as we in time past, Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV) writing to Gentiles who had received the gospel that Paul preached (Galatians 1:8-12 KJV)! They are of those to whom Paul was first sent/ called into the grace of Christ (Galatians 1:6 KJV) and of those who first trusted in Christ (Ephesians 1:12 KJV). Romans through Philemon is the form of sound words written directly to us (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV)!

 

[heir]

And… Not only did Paul think the person needed forgiveness, he said the following words about him.

2 Corinthians 2:10-11
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

In other words, this person who had previously been forgiven and saved, became unsaved and needed forgiveness for his terrible fornication.

Our pattern of forgiving one another is:

Ephesians 4:32 KJV

The good news is that, according to Paul's account of it, God forgave him when he repented.

No. Try and think when was the sin debt paid in full? That is when Paul was forgiven. So to, were we.

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV

 

[Tambora]

You've made your salvation dependent upon the continued work of repentance, despite Col 2:13. You're just another confessionalist, only without the whisper box with the collar on the other side of the screen. Same false plan of salvation...all sins are not wiped so confess or else it's the Lake.

You do not know, or do not believe, what co-death with Christ and justification in Him means.

BRAVO!

 

[Right Divider]

Actually it was written to the church generally, so it has more to do with us than a lot of books.

No, it is not. It is written to Israel. The WE in 1 John is ISRAEL, as John was one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

This is what John is talking about:

Lev 26:40-46 (AKJV/PCE)​

(26:40) If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; (26:41) And [that] I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: (26:42)Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. (26:43) The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes. (26:44) And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I [am] the LORD their God. (26:45) But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I [am] the LORD. (26:46) These [are] the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
​

Why must you be so confused? It's all in the BOOK!

 

[SimpleMan77]

No, it is not. It is written to Israel. The WE in 1 John is ISRAEL, as John was one of the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL.

This is what John is talking about:

Lev 26:40-46 (AKJV/PCE)​

(26:40) If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; (26:41) And [that] I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: (26:42)Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. (26:43) The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes. (26:44) And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I [am] the LORD their God. (26:45) But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I [am] the LORD. (26:46) These [are] the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
​

Why must you be so confused? It's all in the BOOK!

You're quoting the OT, and saying that is what John is referring to?

I believe MADism says that there was a new covenant offered to Israel in the NT, and so John couldn't have been referring to the old covenant.


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[SimpleMan77]

Although the Galatians were not the same kind of Gentiles as we in time past, Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV) writing to Gentiles who had received the gospel that Paul preached (Galatians 1:8-12 KJV)! They are of those to whom Paul was first sent/ called into the grace of Christ (Galatians 1:6 KJV) and of those who first trusted in Christ (Ephesians 1:12 KJV). Romans through Philemon is the form of sound words written directly to us (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV)!

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You can't say Hebrews was only written to Jews, but Paul's writings were to Gentiles generally.

Paul was very specific in his writings as to who he was addressing.

However, I don't have an issue with it. Name me one teaching of Paul's, Peter's, James', Jude's, etc that isn't for us today.

You'll not find one in any of those books that isn't for every Christian, and you won't find one place that any of them contradict each other.


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[Right Divider]

You're quoting the OT, and saying that is what John is referring to?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

I believe MADism says that there was a new covenant offered to Israel in the NT, and so John couldn't have been referring to the old covenant.

I don't really care what you've heard that MADism says.

Why do you think that the new covenant that God will make with Israel cancels all that came before?

Note that Israel, as a whole, was NOT confessing THEIR sins and the sins of their fathers. They were rejecting God's discipline and their King.

 

[Right Divider]

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You can't say Hebrews was only written to Jews, but Paul's writings were to Gentiles generally.

Paul was very specific in his writings as to who he was addressing.

However, I don't have an issue with it. Name me one teaching of Paul's, Peter's, James', Jude's, etc that isn't for us today.

You'll not find one in any of those books that isn't for every Christian, and you won't find one place that any of them contradict each other.

How about this?

Jas 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
​

Which tribe are you?

 

[SimpleMan77]

How about this?

Jas 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
​

Which tribe are you?

I don't have a problem with James writing to them and it being to me also. Every book of the NT is that way.

MADists want to be selective... "James was only writing to the Jews, but Paul, now, he was writing to ALL Gentiles".

You can't have it both ways. Either they both were writing to select audiences with truth that can be applied to all...

...or they both were writing to select audiences and the words only applied to those audiences.


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[Right Divider]

I don't have a problem with James writing to them and it being to me also. Every book of the NT is that way.

No, you only think that they are.

MADists want to be selective... "James was only writing to the Jews, but Paul, now, he was writing to ALL Gentiles".

James is so clear at to the LIMIT of his audience and YET you claim that it's to you.

You can't have it both ways. Either they both were writing to select audiences with truth that can be applied to all...

...or they both were writing to select audiences and the words only applied to those audiences.

We simply understand the Bible the way that it was written. In some of Paul's books he is writing about Israel and in some places he is writing about about gentiles that joined with Israel and in some places he is writing to about the new creature. We accept each in its proper context.

It ain't rocket surgery.

 

[SimpleMan77]

No, you only think that they are.


James is so clear at to the LIMIT of his audience and YET you claim that it's to you.


We simply understand the Bible the way that it was written. In some of Paul's books he is writing about Israel and in some places he is writing about about gentiles that joined with Israel and in some places he is writing to about the new creature. We accept each in its proper context.

It ain't rocket surgery.

Every epistle of Paul tells the LIMIT of his audience. News flash - it's never us.

Sometimes it was an individual, sometimes a church or churches at a specific time and place, but always LIMITED in its target audience.


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[Right Divider]

Every epistle of Paul tells the LIMIT of his audience. News flash - it's never us.

Sometimes it was an individual, sometimes a church or churches at a specific time and place, but always LIMITED in its target audience.

So according to you it's all or nothing?

I hate to break the news to you, but you're not Israel. So I guess none of the Bible to for you and you can just go about your business anyway that you like.

 

[SimpleMan77]

So according to you it's all or nothing?

I hate to break the news to you, but you're not Israel. So I guess none of the Bible to for you and you can just go about your business anyway that you like.

You want to be the one who decides which books are for us and which aren't. That's why MAD is dangerous.

Why do you want to discard any of it as being only for Jews? There is no place that Peter, James, John, etc taught that the law of Moses had to be kept. There is nowhere that they contradict Paul on doctrine. Why do you need to say some books were written only for Jews?


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[Right Divider]

You want to be the one who decides which books are for us and which aren't. That's why MAD is dangerous.

You misconstrue what I say. That figures.

I'm simply taking God's Word at His Word.

When James says that he is writing to the twelve tribes, I understand it.
When Paul says that he is the apostle of the gentiles, I understand it.

You want to try to be all things and that's just confusion.

Why do you want to discard any of it as being only for Jews? There is no place that Peter, James, John, etc taught that the law of Moses had to be kept.

Of course they did, you just don't want to believe it.

Show us all where Jesus said that they were no longer under the law.

There is nowhere that they contradict Paul on doctrine. Why do you need to say some books were written only for Jews?

I guess that you think that Leviticus is also for you. Go for it.

John 4:22 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:22) Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. ​

 

[dodge]

Right Divider;4849385]You misconstrue what I say. That figures.

I'm simply taking God's Word at His Word.

No actually you're not.

Show us all where Jesus said that they were no longer under the law.

It is there YOU just cannot see it !

The law came by Moses but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.

Jhn 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[heir]

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You can't say Hebrews was only written to Jews, but Paul's writings were to Gentiles generally.

Have what both ways? Paul was the apostle of the Gentiles and wrote thirteen epistles to the church, the Body of Christ. Hebrews has nothing to do with it.

 

[heir]

Paul was very specific in his writings as to who he was addressing.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: