Of course Romans 11 is not about eternal life, but about Israel. Paul says so. What are the inconsistencies you speak of?
ECT If MAD is False What Does Hebrews 6:4-6 Mean for Us?
- Thread starter Lighthouse
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Of course Romans 11 is not about eternal life, but about Israel. Paul says so. What are the inconsistencies you speak of?
SimpleMan77
New member
You are arguing the affirmative here. Burden of proof is on you. Show me one place after Calvary (the death of the testator) where the apostles taught the Jews or the Gentiles had to keep the law.
You can find where many continued to keep it, but it was never taught as salvific for Jew or Gentile by any of them. Anywhere.
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dodge
New member
How can you disregard Hebrews ?
Why is the church mentioned in Hebrews ?
Why if Hebrews has nothing to do with it does it point to Jesus for everyone ?
Heb 2:12
Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
heir
TOL Subscriber
All of the Bible is for us, but it's not all to us or about us. You want the Hebrew epistles to be TO you, but this was you before Paul was given the dispensation of the grace of God to you (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV):
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
heir
TOL Subscriber
There are three churches in the Bible and the church in Hebrews is not the church, which is Christ's Body.
Lay off the large font or I'll report you.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Things that are different are NOT the same!
Matthew 19:16-17 KJV vs. Romans 3:21-22 KJV
Acts 10:35 KJV vs. Titus 3:5 KJV
Hebrews 3:14 KJV vs Ephesians 3:6 KJV
James 2:20 KJV vs Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
Right Divider
Body part
Firstly, I never said anything about Gentile law-keeping.
Secondly, the burden of proof is actually on anyone claiming that they were NO LONGER under the law. It was clear that during His earthly ministry, Jesus was under the law and taught the same. So you need to show us all where and how they were released from that obligation.
Peter certainly seemed to think that he was still under the law in Acts 10.
So at one time law-keeping was salvific?
Right Divider
Body part
He's another "dictionary theologian", able to do amazing word searches.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
SimpleMan77
New member
Paul's point here is that now we are:
1)now reconciled to Christ
2)no longer aliens from the commonwealth of Israel
3)no longer strangers from the covenants of promise
4)now having hope
5)now reconciled to God.
That actually disproves MAD doctrine, but if you need more, keep reading. It says there is now one creation in Jesus.
Interestingly, he only contrasts the Old Testament covenant with "now". No three-step process, as in 1)Old Testament, 2)Jewish new covenant, 3)then Grace Gospel.
It was always only old and new, "then" and "now".
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SimpleMan77
New member
Jesus kept the law, but at Calvary it all changed. You will never find the law of Moses taught as necessary after Jesus died.
Peter thought he was, but God showed him otherwise. Peter's own words were that God had showed him that He had purified their hearts through faith. No mention of him teaching them any of the law of Moses. God showed Peter that directly, not through Paul.
And lastly, yes. In the OT keeping the law was salvific. Jesus died to change that. For everyone.
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dodge
New member
Is it a violation of TOL rules to use large font ?
You just will not accept the obvious !
Right Divider
Body part
You've done a wonderful job of putting word in Paul's mouth and turning the Word of God on its head.
Just let the Word of God speak for ITSELF:
Eph 2:11-13 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:11) Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (2:12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (2:13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
The BUT NOW does NOT say ANYTHING about your SUPPOSED 2, 3 & 4 there.
We are made near by the blood without any regard for covenants or commonwealths.
We are COMPLETE in HIM.
Col 2:8-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (2:10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (2:11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (2:12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Amen, brother!
Right Divider
Body part
Did Jesus tell them that during His time on earth AFTER His resurrection?
He did say this:
Matt 28:19-20 (AKJV/PCE)
(28:19) ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Now since He one of the ALL THINGS that He commanded THEM to do was to keep the law of Moses, I'd say that you're wrong.
Matt 23:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)
(23:1) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, (23:2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
So some of the commandments that God said where for the children of Israel forever have come to an end?
Exod 31:16-17 (AKJV/PCE)
(31:16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. (31:17) It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
God shows Peter that something was changing AFTER God called Paul. Makes good sense to me.
Describe the salvation received by keeping the law.
Hi and in Acts 2:36 , Peter is still speaking to the House of Israel !!
In Acts 10:47 , Water Baprism is still being used and that is still the Law as preached by John the Baptist in Matt 3 !!
And we see that in Acts 28:23 , and persuading them concerning them the things of Jesus , both from the Law of Moses and the prophets , from morning until evening !!
Looks like you are wrong !!
dan p
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
The twelve taught that the atonement was future
Paul taught that it was a present reality
They cannot be the same. Think.
SimpleMan77
New member
The house of Israel were who was gathered there. He was obviously addressing them, and didn't realize that God had changed things until Acts 10. Jesus told him that there was still a lot he didn't understand because he wasn't spiritually ready yet. He was ready and God was ready in Acts 10. The door God had already opened to the Jews was now opened to all nations. Same door.
Yes, baptism was preached. Paul also had people baptized all through Acts (Corinthians in Acts 18, other disciples in Acts 19, etc). He didn't do the baptizing, but had his co-workers do it.
Paul proved that Jesus was the Christ in Acts 28, using the law to prove it to the Jews.
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Right Divider
Body part
So Jesus was not a good teacher during His FORTY day training?
Do you realize how many years there are between Acts 1 and Acts 10?
So God just let confusion reign for all that time?
Good post DP