ECT How is Paul's message different?

turbosixx

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Sorry for the delay, been away for a while.

They became believers through the covenant relationship they had before Israel was cut off. Jews believed, Gentiles converted to Jews and became proselytes.

After Israel was cut off (from Paul's conversion to now), NO ONE could (or can) enter into a relationship with God (ie, become a believer) through that covenant. It is only by Grace through faith that we can enter into a relationship with God now.

I don't understand how Paul was the end of the old covenant. Under what covenant did those on Pentecost have their sins forgiven?
 

Clete

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I apologize for the abbreviated format of this post but it's all I had time for....
Sorry for the delay but I've been away for a while.


I use the term to consolidate what Paul is talking about. He is the one who brings up flesh not I. He is clearly making a distinction between children of flesh and children of promise.
Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
What do you understand his point to be?


Sure it can mean that but it also applies to people being “cut off”.
Gen. 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
Physical nation of Israel was a shadow like the law? I base it on what makes someone a Jew. What to you makes someone a Jew?


The reason I say “I understand” is because we read the same bible yet understand it differently. I usually say “my current understanding” because it can and has changed as I’m sure yours has. I don’t see how anyone can say they understand perfectly what the bible is telling us. You say you “let the bible say what it says whenever possible”, I do the same yet we see still see it differently. We both can’t be right, either one or both of us doesn’t really understand what the bible is telling us. That’s why I’m on here, to see if I’m missing something.


I agree God has changed his mind but not with prophecy. If a prophecy doesn’t come true, that prophet is false.
Duet. 18:21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously.
Also, when God does change his mind, he lets us know. I believe he is omniscient and knows exactly what will happen so he never really changes his mind. I believe it's just earthly terms that we can understand to describe something we cannot understand.


It was conditional.
Deut. 11:22 For if you will be careful to do all this commandment that I command you to do, loving the Lord your God, walking in all his ways, and holding fast to him, 23 then the Lord will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations greater and mightier than you.


I understand that to be a warning and not a prophecy.


They did deserve it.


I agree not just by their birth. God set the Jews apart as his people and they were born into it. In the OT there were his people (Jews) and everyone else (Gentiles). That was a shadow of what we have in Christ. Christians and everyone else.


It looks to me like Jesus took the law to a new level.
Matt. 5: 27 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Jews did not practice stoning a man because he lusted in his heart, only if he committed the act.


Baptism for the repentance of sins was new.


That is exactly what I’m saying. Jesus said before being rejected by the Jews he was going to build his church.


I do take it for what if plainly states.


They were not forced. There was/is no command to do so but they willingly did it as they saw Christians in need. Peter makes it clear that Ananias and Sapphira’s land was theirs to do with as they pleased,Acts 5:4.


I don’t see it as Paul explained the gospel to the 12. He went to the 12 to be sure he was correct and lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. He's not saying the 12 were possibly running in vain but himself.


That is what the plain reading says. Here the Corinthians were converted by Peter, Apollos and Paul yet Paul tells them to be of the same mind and same judgment.
1 Cor. 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.”

I haven’t seen any proof that Peter and Paul converted Christians any differently. They preached Christ and baptized the believers into one body. That one body(church) was created at the cross, Eph. 2:16.

As always, I look forward to your comments.

It seems we are at an impasse.

You state that you take it (the text) for what it plainly states and then proceed to tell me what you do and don't see the text saying, as if the plain reading of the text is a matter of opinion. Words mean things. You cannot have it both ways. You either take the text to mean what it flatly states and base your doctrine on that or you use your doctrine to interpret the text. There are times when the later is appropriate but it ought not be one's default position. Mid-Acts Dispensational Free Will Theism is all about taking the plain reading whenever possible and forming doctrine around that. Every other system of doctrine that I've ever seen does the reverse to one degree or another.


You don't take what Jonah said as a prophecy? Who are you and what makes you think you have the right to make such a proclamation?
Of course it was prophesy! It was God's word through a prophet telling people what was going to happen in the future. What else, what ingredient is missing that would make that a prophesy? It's ridiculous! Jesus Himself affirmed Jonah as a prophet.

But you hit on the answer just a few moments earlier when you pointed out that God removing Israel's enemies was conditional.

Here's the key....

Jeremiah 18 makes all prophecies conditional. The only exceptions being those that concern God Himself and His own actions and will (i.e. having nothing to do with what creating beings do or don't do - the eventual creation of a New Heaven and New Earth, for example).

Clete
 

turbosixx

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You don't take what Jonah said as a prophecy? Who are you and what makes you think you have the right to make such a proclamation?
Of course it was prophesy! It was God's word through a prophet telling people what was going to happen in the future. What else, what ingredient is missing that would make that a prophesy? It's ridiculous! Jesus Himself affirmed Jonah as a prophet.

I agree Jonah is a prophet.
God gave the recipients of the warning time to repent. If they had not repented then absolutely God would have carried it out. Why did Jonah initially run?

If God does not fulfill his prophecy, how can we trust that any of them will come to pass?
 

God's Truth

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It's just a metaphor, Turbo. No need to take it too far. Though, I suppose if you were, you could think of it like this:

Have you ever tried breaking off a mostly dead branch from a still living tree?

Is the break always a clean break?



They became believers through the covenant relationship they had before Israel was cut off. Jews believed, Gentiles converted to Jews and became proselytes.

After Israel was cut off (from Paul's conversion to now), NO ONE could (or can) enter into a relationship with God (ie, become a believer) through that covenant. It is only by Grace through faith that we can enter into a relationship with God now.



See Genesis 17.

Jesus came to make a new covenant that would be based on faith, because the old covenant was not based on faith it was based on the works of the law called the purification/ceremonial works. A person didn't have to have faith under the old law they had to clean themselves. The lost sheep of Israel are the Jews who did have faith and did obey by doing the purification/ceremonial works.

God cut off and hardened all those Jews who did not already have faith by the time Jesus came.
God cut them off and hardened the Jews who did not already belong to Him by faith so that they could not hear Jesus and understand and be saved at that time. Jesus came first for those who were already saved and belonging to God. They were God's and God gave them to Jesus. They now had to go through Jesus to remain God's. Jesus said he would not lose one that God had given him.

God bound all those Jews He cut off to the same place that the Gentiles were---He bound them to disobedience. He did that so that when the time was right, He could have mercy on all of those---if they come to Jesus' shed blood on the cross to wash away their sins and be reconciled to Him through the blood of His Son.

So you see, the Jews without faith were cut off by the time John the baptizer came to prepare the way for the Lord.

The old covenant was preached until John. John the baptizer was preaching the new covenant.
 

JudgeRightly

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I agree Jonah is a prophet.

:thumb:

God gave the recipients of the warning time to repent. If they had not repented then absolutely God would have carried it out. Why did Jonah initially run?

Because he was selfish.

If God does not fulfill his prophecy, how can we trust that any of them will come to pass?

Turbo, Which is more important to God, that people love Him? or that prophecy be fulfilled?

You're missing key scripture here. Go read Jeremiah 18, and read what God says about building up and tearing down nations.
 

God's Truth

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God is not held captive by the things He does. God cut off Israel, and Paul is giving a warning to the Gentiles: if God can cut off His own people, then it wouldn't be too far fetched to think that He could cut off the Gentiles as well, and move back to Israel.

Gentiles who were not converted to Judaism were not included, so how could they be cut off?

Cornelius and his whole household did not become Jews, they were not circumcised the day they heard the message and were saved.
 

JudgeRightly

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Jesus came to make a new covenant that would be based on faith, because the old covenant was not based on faith it was based on the works of the law called the purification/ceremonial works. A person didn't have to have faith under the old law they had to clean themselves. The lost sheep of Israel are the Jews who did have faith and did obey by doing the purification/ceremonial works.

God cut off and hardened all those Jews who did not already have faith by the time Jesus came.
God cut them off and hardened the Jews who did not already belong to Him by faith so that they could not hear Jesus and understand and be saved at that time. Jesus came first for those who were already saved and belonging to God. They were God's and God gave them to Jesus. They now had to go through Jesus to remain God's. Jesus said he would not lose one that God had given him.

God bound all those Jews He cut off to the same place that the Gentiles were---He bound them to disobedience. He did that so that when the time was right, He could have mercy on all of those---if they come to Jesus' shed blood on the cross to wash away their sins and be reconciled to Him through the blood of His Son.

So you see, the Jews without faith were cut off by the time John the baptizer came to prepare the way for the Lord.

The old covenant was preached until John. John the baptizer was preaching the new covenant.
Nope.

Israel was cut off in Acts 9.
 

God's Truth

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Nope.

Israel was cut off in Acts 9.

That is ignorance or denial to the truth.

Here are the scriptures that show there were cut off Jews:


Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,
 

JudgeRightly

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Gentiles who were not converted to Judaism were not included, so how could they be cut off?

Cornelius and his whole household did not become Jews, they were not circumcised the day they heard the message and were saved.
Nope. Wrong again.

Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — - Hebrews 8:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews8:8&version=NKJV

Paul is quoting Jeremiah 31:31 here. And notice that Paul is quoting it as if God is still finding fault with Israel.

Meaning, that the "new covenant" has not come about yet.
 

JudgeRightly

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That is ignorance or denial to the truth.

Here are the scriptures that show there were cut off Jews:


Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,
So does that mean that any time the Bible states that someone is blinded by God that they're cut off? no, of course not.

Taking scripture out of context to proof-text your beliefs is a bad idea.
 

God's Truth

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You and I share something in common, then.

In a way...

I myself began to come to some of the views I now hold about a year and a half before I'd ever heard what they were called (Acts 9 Dispensationalism), or that anyone else held to them.

Just through time in Scripture.

About a year and a half after I began understanding these things, I ran across the book "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam.

Was really surprised how much that author and I were obviously alike in our our study approach.

Not that he went into his approach; for he did not.

Rather, his results (that book) made it obvious I was on the right track in how I was approaching my study of things.

If you'll google the words "pdf stam things that differ" you'll find links to a pdf copy of it.

It is well worth the read.

A warning, though - get ready for a whole lot of Bible passages - in page after page, after page.

As it should be, 2 Tim. 4:1-5.

Anyway, if anything, you'll at least be a bit more familiar with where Clete is coming from - he too holds an Acts 9 Dispensational understanding of Scripture very similar to the one in that book.

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.

You found a teacher that tickled your ears. We are warned against that.
 

God's Truth

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Nope. Wrong again.

Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — - Hebrews 8:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews8:8&version=NKJV

Paul is quoting Jeremiah 31:31 here. And notice that Paul is quoting it as if God is still finding fault with Israel.

Meaning, that the "new covenant" has not come about yet.

Jesus came giving the new covenant guidelines.

Paul is a minister of that covenant.


Paul is speaking to the Corinthian Gentiles. Paul says he is a minister of a NEW COVENANT.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!


Paul says he is a MINISTER of a NEW COVENANT and that it is THE MINISTRY/COVENANT of the SPIRIT.

Jesus came and made a NEW COVENANT.

Jesus promised the Spirit.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is being reconciled to God and being given eternal life.

It is receiving the gifts as in a last will and testament.
 

God's Truth

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Nope. Wrong again.

Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — - Hebrews 8:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews8:8&version=NKJV

Paul is quoting Jeremiah 31:31 here. And notice that Paul is quoting it as if God is still finding fault with Israel.

Meaning, that the "new covenant" has not come about yet.

Jesus came with a new covenant.

Peter gave that new message to Cornelius and his whole Gentile household.

They were not circumcised that night, they repented and received the Holy Spirit.

That is the covenant that Paul was included in and preached.
 

Clete

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I agree Jonah is a prophet.
God gave the recipients of the warning time to repent. If they had not repented then absolutely God would have carried it out. Why did Jonah initially run?

If God does not fulfill his prophecy, how can we trust that any of them will come to pass?
Who said anything about God not fulfilling His prophesy?

All prophecy of punishment is a warning. All prophesy of blessing is conditional.

In short, all prophesy is conditional! This is what Jeremiah 18 is ALL about. That is what it explicitly teaches.

How can we be discussing exactly what you are doing and you not see what you are doing?

You've taken the doctrine that basically states that all prophesy is prewritten history and interpret whatever passage you need to interpret in order to maintain that doctrine. You do it to the point of redefining Jonah's prophesy out of existence! That isn't taking the text for what it says.


Clete

P.S.

Incidentally, from you other post, Jesus did not change the Law. Jesus was not suggesting that a man be stoned for lust but merely that is a sin to lust and that the sin was on the level, morally speaking, of adultery. There is a difference between sin and crime. All crimes are sinful but not all sins are criminal. It is a sin to desire your neighbors death, it is a crime to murder him. Lying is a often a sin but committing perjury or fraud is a crime.

That has very little to do with our discussion but I just wanted to point it out because "bringing the law to a new level" is heresy. There is only one law and God got it right the first time and it doesn't need amending or improvement. It was the Jew's understanding of the Law that Jesus was amending, not the Law itself.
 

Clete

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Sorry for the delay, been away for a while.



I don't understand how Paul was the end of the old covenant. Under what covenant did those on Pentecost have their sins forgiven?

The same one that Peter got his forgiven under.

Pentecost was a JEWISH Feast day. It comes on the fiftieth day after Passover and was also called the Feast of Weeks (Leviticus 23:15-22). This is proof that Israel had not yet been cut off and that Israel's prophesied program was still fully intact and on track as of Acts 2 and 3.

Clete
 

God's Truth

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The same one that Peter got his forgiven under.

Pentecost was a JEWISH Feast day. It comes on the fiftieth day after Passover and was also called the Feast of Weeks (Leviticus 23:15-22). This is proof that Israel had not yet been cut off and that Israel's prophesied program was still fully intact and on track as of Acts 2 and 3.

Clete

Jesus is the fulfillment of the old law.

How do you get you proved, or disproved anything?

Jesus didn't come to say the old law was a lie.

Jews were cut off before Jesus came.

The Jews who were not cut off were the lost sheep of Israel.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Jesus came giving the new covenant guidelines.

Paul is a minister of that covenant.


Paul is speaking to the Corinthian Gentiles. Paul says he is a minister of a NEW COVENANT.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!


Paul says he is a MINISTER of a NEW COVENANT and that it is THE MINISTRY/COVENANT of the SPIRIT.

Jesus came and made a NEW COVENANT.

Jesus promised the Spirit.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is being reconciled to God and being given eternal life.

It is receiving the gifts as in a last will and testament.

It's obvious that you earned that 'zero rep-power.'
 
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