ECT How is Paul's message different?

Clete

Clete

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JudgeRightly said:
Prophecy simply means "a prediction."

Prophesy simple means "to say that (a specified thing) will happen in the future."

Trying to redefine the terms to suit your argument doesn't work.



No. Daniel's prophecy failed because Israel as a nation rejected God, and God was no longer able to work with them, and so God moved to working with the rest of the world in Acts 9.

Remember Jeremiah 18?

"And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. - Jeremiah 18:9-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:9-10&version=NKJV

This is EXACTLY what happened with Israel in Acts 1-8. God promised them a kingdom, but they did evil in His sight, killing his representatives to them. They even killed His Son. So he repented of the good which He said He would benefit her. And so His plans to make her prosperous were put on hold, until the fullness of the gentiles is reached.



So, either Daniel's words were not from God (because they didn't come true), if what you say is true.

OR

Prophecy can sometimes fail, even if it's from God, which is what the Bible says throughout.

So who should I believe, you, or the Bible? I'm gonna go with what the Bible says every time.

The passage you quote below to support this claim doesn't say "it must come true or it isn't from God." It says "IF it DOESN'T come true, then it's not from God." There's a difference. If what you said is true, then what Jonah said wasn't from God, because it didn't come true.



Redefining the word to fit your beliefs doesn't work.



Again, prophecy simply means "a prediction."

Prophesy simple means "to say that (a specified thing) will happen in the future."

God's warning that He gave to Jonah to relay to Nineveh was prophecy. Did you notice that there were no conditions given to Jonah on how they could change God's mind.

Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying,“Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.”So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent.And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” - Jonah 3:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah3:1-4&version=NKJV

Jonah was a prophet.
He prophesied to Nineveh that they would be destroyed. No exceptions.

Nineveh repented, and God decided not to destroy them, because God is a living God, and is not subject to His prophecies. He would much rather not destroy a repentant nation than make sure His prophecy doesn't fail.



First of all, your argument, "how can we trust God if His prophecies fail," is a nonstarter.

We can trust God because He is righteous, just, and love, and doubting Him because of a failed prediction shows a lack of faith.
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Excellent post!

Would you agree, however, that it isn't really that God's prophecies occasionally "fail" but rather that many of God's prophesies are conditional and that they were never intended to be fulfilled unless the conditions were and continued to be met.

That's basically the point that God makes in Jeremiah 18, right? If God speaks concerning a nation but that nation repents (for the better or worse) then God will repent as well and not do what He said. It isn't a failure of Daniel's prophesy if Israel rejects the King that God was in the process of trying to give them.

Perhaps that's a fine point but the distinction might help some see the point more clearly. We do not believe that God makes errors but rather that He is not a slave to His promises if the intended benefactor does evil in His sight or if the enemy that He sets out to destroy repents.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Clete said:
Excellent post!

Would you agree, however, that it isn't really that God's prophecies occasionally "fail" but rather that many of God's prophesies are conditional and that they were never intended to be fulfilled unless the conditions were and continued to be met.

That's basically the point that God makes in Jeremiah 18, right? If God speaks concerning a nation but that nation repents (for the better or worse) then God will repent as well and not do what He said. It isn't a failure of Daniel's prophesy if Israel rejects the King that God was in the process of trying to give them.

Perhaps that's a fine point but the distinction might help some see the point more clearly. We do not believe that God makes errors but rather that He is not a slave to His promises if the intended benefactor does evil in His sight or if the enemy that He sets out to destroy repents.

Resting in Him,
Clete
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Absolutely!
 
Clete

Clete

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turbosixx said:
I understand Jeremiah 18, I just don't agree with MAD's application of it. I believe they overlook a detail.

4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
Through Jesus's sacrifice he created a new body and new man out of Jew and Gentile, another new vessel.
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It is you who are missing it. The portion you highlight defeats YOUR point, not ours.

The fact that God had to REWORK the vessel means that His first attempt failed, does it not?

The reworked vessel was not what God had in mind to begin with. It was the vessel that ended up spoiled that He had in mind at first but instead God had to react and respond to circumstances as they unfolded.

Leaving the analogy, God wanted to give Israel a Kingdom and was actively in the process of doing exactly that, fulfilling prophesy after prophesy in and through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as well as the giving of the Holy Spirit. But Israel refused their King! They HATED the King! They killed the King and then when He rose the from dead, they hated Him all the more! And Jesus wasn't just any King, He was THE King of all kings! How can God give a nation a kingdom when they hate the Ultimate King of all time?

The answer is, He can't and He didn't. (see Romans 9 and Jeremiah 18).

Now, as you say, God didn't just give up. He took was He had and formed it into something else, in this case, The Body of Christ, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. I would say, however, that such use of Jeremiah 18 is rather indirect. The application is only valid in the sense that this is the way God works but Jeremiah 18 is NOT making reference to, nor making any prophesy of the future Body of Christ.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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popsthebuilder said:
So you agree that GOD doesn't change then?
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1Tim 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Matt 1:23 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
​
 
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popsthebuilder

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Right Divider said:
1Tim 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Matt 1:23 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
​
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The people requested a king.

I don't have time for this at the moment.

I will explain later.

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popsthebuilder

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Hebrews 13: 8. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

(GOD doesn't change in character. Manifesting within HIS creation is wholly within the power of GOD.....and could be seen as a change from invisible to physically manifest. This becoming physical temporarily isn't really a change to me as it was always part of GOD'S will and within GOD'S power.)



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Danoh

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Right Divider said:
1Tim 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Matt 1:23 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
​
Click to expand...

You're either slippin, or have slipped - even STP :)chuckle:) knows that 1 Tim. 3:16 is a sum up of God having manifested Himself in His New Creature: the Body of Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Rom. 14:5; in memory of Rom. 5:6-8 - in each our stead.
 
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popsthebuilder said:
Hebrews 13: 8. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

(GOD doesn't change in character. Manifesting within HIS creation is wholly within the power of GOD.....and could be seen as a change from invisible to physically manifest. This becoming physical temporarily isn't really a change to me as it was always part of GOD'S will and within GOD'S power.)
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Hebrews 13:8 is a statement of the deity of Jesus Christ.
 
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glorydaz said:
Actually, it's both. It's a comparison. I'm surprised you don't know this, Danoh.
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According to Danoh, the "body of Christ was preached unto the Gentiles" :dizzy:
According to Danoh, the "body of Christ was believed on in the world" :dizzy:
According to Danoh, the "body of Christ was received up into glory" :dizzy:

1Tim 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. ​
 
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Danoh

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Well that settles that, both rd and gd have proven nothing, but decreed otherwise.

:chuckle:

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.
 
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Danoh

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Right Divider said:
According to Danoh, the "body of Christ was preached unto the Gentiles" :dizzy:
According to Danoh, the "body of Christ was believed on in the world" :dizzy:
According to Danoh, the "body of Christ was received up into glory" :dizzy:

1Tim 3:16 (AKJV/PCE)​
(3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. ​
Click to expand...

Some on here have never noticed that unless someone else has already laid out an in-depth study on a topic in question, I'll lay one out myself.

That otherwise, I'll simply post another individual's same or similar findings; that I might save myself all the work of tracking down and restudying, and laying out all the relevant passages, only to find I wasted my time with a naysayer and or an individual married to their particular view, though they've not provided in-depth proof their view is sound.

Google the following on all the relevant passages - I long ago found it is my same understanding.

Google these words here...

009 The Mystery Of Godliness.pdf

After you've read it, if you're so inclined, we can go from there.

Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.
 
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popsthebuilder

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And?

Your point please.

GOD is without change. I never said the man Jesus was not the manifestation of GOD, so how is your statement relevent to the topic. I've already mentioned the incarnation and how it isn't an example of GOD changing because it was for told and deatined from the beginning of time and always part of GOD'S plan and in GOD'S power.
Right Divider said:
Hebrews 13:8 is a statement of the deity of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

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