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How does one determine, using the scientific method, that the earth is billions of years old?

iouae

Well-known member
Different species go extinct all the time.
True.

"Scientists estimate that 150-200 species of plant, insect, bird and mammal become extinct every 24 hours."

But when the 10 mile wide meteor strikes the Gulf of Mexico, whole orders of animals can be changed from alive and kicking to fossilised instantly.
 

7djengo7

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Because on survival programs where folks have to eat wild animals, most claim that snake or whatever tastes like chicken. I can understand why dino's taste like chicken.

OK. Just making sure you weren't perhaps trying to sneak in a hint of Darwinismspeak stupidity, in which they like to say that birds are dinoaurs.
 

iouae

Well-known member
OK. Just making sure you weren't perhaps trying to sneak in a hint of Darwinismspeak stupidity, in which they like to say that birds are dinoaurs.
Taxonomy or species classification is based on evolution or similarities in design (their elbow joints are the same).

When genetics gets better they will find their whole Taxonomy does not fit the genetics.

God created animals using whichever gene works. If a hollow bone gene works in a dinosaur it may work in a bird. It's not that they have a common ancestor but that they have a common Creator.
 

JudgeRightly

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I am not going to argue about supercritical water any more because

... you have no valid arguments against our position, and you know you can't win the argument, so your response is "I'm going to take my ball and go play somewhere else!" instead of humbling yourself and considering that your beliefs might not be all that you crack them up to be.

it floats your boat, then by all means believe in it.

We believe the HPT because it comports with the evidence, not because it "floats our boat"... Although the evidence does show that a boat did in fact float. ;)

I have stated my objections.

And literally all of them have been answered.

On the other hand, our objections to your beliefs are many, and most, if not all have gone unanswered.

And water for Noah's flood had to come from somewhere.

Answered, and with scripture, no less. But you ignored it.

Maybe the deep ocean crevices were uplifted.

Nope. The "deep sea crevices" we see today were the RESULT of the flood, not the cause of it.

But sure, keep spouting whatever nonsense your brain can come up with so you can stubbornly continue to ignore the evidence.

I don't for a second believe

Facts don't care about your feelings.

that hydroplate theory has any proof that it can sort at all.

Try pulling your head out of the sand you've stuck it in, and look around you, instead of parroting darwinist beliefs.

Brown chose a fairly inaccessible and unknown substance (supercritical water)

Except that it's not unknown.

We know how it works very well, its properties, and how to use it.

The only reason it's inaccessible is because it requires containers that can safely withstand the pressures involved, since even the slightest crack in a container that holds some within it would be extremely dangerous. Most people generally don't have any use for it anyways.

then attributed it with all kinds of superpowers including freezing mammoths and sorting fossils.

False accusations will get you nowhere, Vowels.

He might as well have added it made tea for Noah while whistling Dixie.

Quit posturing.

There are many layers in the geologic column that suggest causes other than a flood wiped out the biota.

How many times have I answered this now?

For instance the evidence for the dinos being wiped out by a comet which left impact crater, nano-diamonds, iridium et.

Never happened.

The megafauna which immediately preceeded the creation of Adam,

Megafauna did not exist until after Adam's creation.

I addressed this already.

including Clovis culture or early American hunter gatherer culture, seemed to be wiped out by a fire, since there is a black mat which covers 50 Clovis culture sites. This thin layer of carbon rich, burnt material somehow ended the pre-Adamic world and left earth without form and void in a kind of nuclear winter.

Sounds like a load of made-up garbage.

There was also a flood at this time because God had to uplift the land on Day 3.

You're not wrong, but you're not right either.

There was a "flood" of sorts, but not because of rain, or some sort of catastrophe.

God created the earth as a ball of rock with a global ocean, say, 2 miles deep, then He created the crust of the earth in the middle of that water, halfway between the bottom and the surface. He started this on day 2, and on day 3 the now settled crust had sunk in some places, and risen in others. Where it had sunk formed "pillars" that held up the rest of the crust, and directly above those pillars, were the seas. The rest of the crust that rose formed the dry land, and directly below the dry land, 60 miles down, were the waters laid up in storehouses beneath the earth.

That's what the Bible says. Why do you reject it?

And the flood water would have solidified and fossilised this layer of burnt organic matter or "black mat".

Do you even listen to yourself?

God has a long track record of ending things and beginning again, which is what I see the geologic column as saying.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Genesis 1:2 begins with mass destruction leaving earth without form and void.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Then God repents of making mankind and institutes the Noah flood.

"Institutes"? What are you, Calvin?

Then at Christ's return there is another mass extinction as described in Revelation.

What mass extinction?

Then after the millennium there is another mass extinction by fire engulfing the earth.

And?

2Pe 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Maybe you should focus more on the context. There's a reason for that question mark being there. Your ripping the verse out of context obfuscates what is being said.

Then God ended the Old Covenant and instituted the new.

And then he put it on hold. Maybe you can guess why.

And God told Moses, step aside and let me destroy these pesky Israelites and make your descendants into my new favourite people.

And there was a reason for that.

Maybe you can guess what that reason was.

If 4 mass extinctions in 7000 years don't tell you something about how God operates,

Then you clearly don't know God.

then just look at the geologic column to see that this is continued into the 500 million years that life has been on earth.

Begging the question is a fallacy.

Death did not start with one man (er woman).
Death for modern man started with one man (er woman).

No, it wasn't Eve. It was Adam. Scripture is explicit on this.

Death and predation and parasites litter the fossil record.

The only "record" the fossil record shows is of the Flood of Noah.

And yes, that came AFTER Adam's fall, not before it.

The world was fallen from the Cambrian explosion.

The Cambrian Explosion is not a Biblical concept.

It's an imagined origin of life forms meant to prop up evolutionist theories.

The reality is that that layer of sediments is just ine of many laid down by the Flood.

But it was and always has also been magnificent and diverse.

Agreed.

We see the goodness and severity of God in the rocks.

But apparently, to you, that can't mean that the rocks were formed in the recent past, but rather millions or billions of years ago...

The idea that earth is somehow fallen and now in an unusual state is just the result of bad reading of Paul.

False.

Earth is only bad by comparison with how it will be after the new heavens and earth (that is why the whole creation groans).

Where do you even come up with this nonsense?

But God Himself saw what He created that it was good,

Because it was. God is capable of creating good things the first time around.

and He did not mess it up after Adam sinned.

Define "mess it up."

Instead he simply booted Adam out of Eden which was like God's back yard, nice and tame.

Eden was where God lived. AKA Heaven. Scripture says so.

But out there the world was already full of thorns.

Now you're directly contradicting scripture. God did not create a dangerous place for his created creatures to live in.
It was "very good" in every sense of the word.

God did not create thorns after Adam sinned.

Wrong.

Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” - Genesis 3:17-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis3:17-19&version=NKJV

Thorns and thorny animals have been around forever.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

According to you all, God sent Adam and Eve and Cain out into Jurassic Park.

You're the one with the obsession with Jurassic Park, not us.

Don't include us in your delusions.

Twice now (iirc, and this should be the third time), I've stated explicitly that no creature was a carnivore prior to the flood.

Cain should not have been worried about some person finding him, but T-rex finding him.

Straw man.

Yet I know there were no dinos around then

Saying it doesn't make it so.

since the fossil record shows no use by humans of dinosaur bones etc.

So what?

AND folks pre-flood lived to nearly 1000 years without exception.

Yes, and?

With dinosaurs roaming earth they would not have lived for 1000 days.

Again, dinosaurs, prior to the flood, were herbivores.

But when the 10 mile wide meteor strikes the Gulf of Mexico, whole orders of animals can be changed from alive and kicking to fossilised instantly.

Never happened.
 

Stripe

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I am not going to argue about supercritical water any more
That's probably for the best.

I don't for a second believe that hydroplate theory has any proof that it can sort at all.

Que?

Brown chose a fairly inaccessible and unknown substance (supercritical water) and then attributed it with all kinds of superpowers including freezing mammoths and sorting fossils.

It looks like you have spent exactly no time reading his ideas.

There are many layers in the geologic column that suggest causes other than a flood wiped out the biota.
There are no sedimentary layers (including metamorphic seds) that were not laid down in water.

For instance the evidence for the dinos being wiped out by a comet which left impact crater, nano-diamonds, iridium et.
How would a comet wipe out dinosaurs and not kill everything else?

According to you all, God sent Adam and Eve and Cain out into Jurassic Park. Cain should not have been worried about some person finding him, but T rex finding him.
Gen 9:2.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I am not going to argue about supercritical water any more because if it floats your boat, then by all means believe in it. I have stated my objections. And water for Noah's flood had to come from somewhere. Maybe the deep ocean crevices were uplifted.
Perhaps you could stop making stupid comments on the theory that you know so little about and instead actually spend a little time learning about it. It's not that hard.
https://hpt.rsr.org/onlinebook/IntheBeginningTOC.html
I don't for a second believe that hydroplate theory has any proof that it can sort at all.
What you "believe" is irrelevant.
Brown chose a fairly inaccessible and unknown substance (supercritical water) and then attributed it with all kinds of superpowers including freezing mammoths and sorting fossils.
A complete fabrication on your part (that means a LIE).
He might as well have added it made tea for Noah while whistling Dixie.
False.
There are many layers in the geologic column that suggest causes other than a flood wiped out the biota. For instance the evidence for the dinos being wiped out by a comet which left impact crater, nano-diamonds, iridium et.
Calling it "the geologic column" is a fallacy called begging the question
 
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iouae

Well-known member
That's probably for the best.



Que?



It looks like you have spent exactly no time reading his ideas.

There are no sedimentary layers (including metamorphic seds) that were not laid down in water.

How would a comet wipe out dinosaurs and not kill everything else?

Gen 9:2.
Depending on the size of the impact object, the energy released will be proportional to the size. And The tidal wave or dust kicked up creating a winter of darkness will determine which organisms survive. 50% the species living with the dinosaurs died out. I suppose marine creatures like fish and turtles and sharks and crocs would survive. Things that can hide in holes might survive. A heat blast and shock wave would leave large animals like dinos with no place to hide.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” - Genesis 3:17-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis3:17-19&version=NKJV

Again, dinosaurs, prior to the flood, were herbivores.

I don't read the scripture as God creating thorns, but saying thorns would have a greater preeminence.

I have yet to see a T rex fossil with molars for eating herbs instead of those vicious flesh-tearing teeth.
 

Stripe

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Depending on the size of the impact object, the energy released will be proportional to the size. And The tidal wave or dust kicked up creating a winter of darkness will determine which organisms survive. 50% the species living with the dinosaurs died out. I suppose marine creatures like fish and turtles and sharks and crocs would survive. Things that can hide in holes might survive. A heat blast and shock wave would leave large animals like dinos with no place to hide.
Sounds like magic
 

iouae

Well-known member
Sounds like magic

From https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-i...als-rapid-evolution-after-dinosaur-extinction

"New clues unearthed about mammals’ rapid evolution after dinosaur extinction
It was a life-altering event. Around 66 million years ago, at the end of the Cretaceous period, an asteroid struck the Earth, triggering a mass extinction that killed off the dinosaurs and some 75% of all species. Somehow mammals survived, thrived, and became dominant across the planet. Now we have new clues about how that happened.

Wiped out
The work supports a growing body of research showing that when the dinosaurs were wiped out, it wasn’t simply a case of one group of animals dying off and another taking over as was previously thought.
Smaller mammals seemed to be better equipped to survive since they could hide more easily, for example, and those with a diverse diet were able to adapt more quickly, Dr Brusatte said.
‘There isn’t one magic reason why some of them lived and others died,’ he said. ‘There was probably chance and randomness involved because things changed so quickly after the asteroid hit.’
The team was surprised to learn how quickly mammals evolved after the extinction. Although the first mammals originated at the same time as the early dinosaurs – more than 200 million years ago – they remained small, about the size of badgers, when they co-existed.
A few hundred thousand years after dinosaurs disappeared, there were much larger, cow-sized species. ‘Mammals just took advantage of the opportunity and started to evolve really fast,’ Dr Brusatte said."

Even scientists (evolutionists) imply that its magical how fast new mammal species replaced the dinosaurs after the dinosaur extinction. They even give it a name "adaptive radiation" and then pretend they have explained it.

It's called "creation" and God created all creatures, including the ones replacing the dinosaurs.
After each mass extinction there is a new creation.
The Cambrian explosion was a creation event.
Palaeontologists are as much at a loss as to how to explain the creation of new species from nothing, as cosmologists are at loss as to explaining where all laws of physics and all matter arose. In the end it all comes back to theology. Look at how immediately scientists fall back on their gods of "chance and randomness" to explain things.
 

iouae

Well-known member
God created ALL life in the first six days.

God did not even create the earth on any one of the 6 days.

Gen 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Not a mention on Day 1 of God creating anything but light.

But before Day 1 in Gen 1:2 earth was already created and had become without form and void.
 

Right Divider

Body part
God did not even create the earth on any one of the 6 days.
Wrong you are.
Gen 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Not a mention on Day 1 of God creating anything but light.

But before Day 1 in Gen 1:2 earth was already created and had become without form and void.
Nowhere does the Bible ever say that the earth "became without form and void."

Gen 1:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (1:2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (1:3) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (1:4) And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (1:5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Note that verses two, three, four and five ALL START with AND, which means that they are a continuation of verse ONE where the earth was created.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Depending on the size of the impact object, the energy released will be proportional to the size.

There were no dangerous objects in the solar system prior to the Flood. That includes "dinosaur-killing asteroids.

God created, and it was very good. He said so.

And The tidal wave

There were plenty of tidal waves in the Flood, but you don't seem to realize just how destructive the Flood actually was.

or dust kicked up creating a winter of darkness

The only ice age that has ever happened happened AFTER the flood.

Also, during the flood, the cloud-cover would have brought temperatures down significantly.

will determine which organisms survive.

God told us which creatures were destroyed in the flood. Why don't you listen?

And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. - Genesis 7:21-23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis7:21-23&version=NKJV

50% the species living with the dinosaurs died out.

Nope. God is explicit. ALL FLESH died that moved on the earth.

The evidence is the millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth, as Ken Ham puts it.

I suppose marine creatures like fish and turtles and sharks and crocs would survive.

Some did not survive the flood, because of just how violent it was. Many aquatic species went extinct in the flood.

Things that can hide in holes might survive.

Nope. Anything hiding underground would have been crushed by the weight of the water, or drowned, or both.

A heat blast and shock wave would leave large animals like dinos with no place to hide.

Yet you ignore the shockwave that would have been generated by the fountains of the great deep breaking forth?

There was indeed nowhere for any creature on earth to hide during the Flood.

As for heat, there wasn't much, as explained prior.

I don't read the scripture as God creating thorns,

God did not create thorns at all? So how did thorns come into existence?

but saying thorns would have a greater preeminence.

Except that this was the first time in scripture that thorns are even mentioned, even indirectly.

Thorns are painful, they hurt. they can even draw blood if they penetrate deep enough.

That's not "very good."

God created a universe where there was nothing to harm His creations. Why do you insist otherwise?

I have yet to see a T rex fossil with molars for eating herbs instead of those vicious flesh-tearing teeth.

Alright, so I should have worded what I said differently.

The point is that no creature ate meat until after the fall, and probably LONG after. There was a drought just before the Flood, so perhaps the creatures that became carnivores adapted (not evolved) to their environment with a lack of plants to eat to eat other creatures.

We see this with finches. Within 20 years, they can adapt to have a completely different kind of beak. And those are modern day, post-Flood finches. Dinosaurs (and bird-kind, for that matter) would have been much more genetically capable of adapting to their environments.

From https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-i...als-rapid-evolution-after-dinosaur-extinction

"New clues unearthed about mammals’ rapid evolution after dinosaur extinction
It was a life-altering event.

Which lends credence to what I just said, but it's not because of the dinosaurs going extinct. It wasn't evolution, but the animals adapting to other creatures turning carnivorous.

Around 66 million years ago,

Fairy tale.

at the end of the Cretaceous period,

No such thing.

an asteroid struck the Earth,

Asteroids are a result of the flood. They were not created directly by God.

triggering a mass extinction that killed off the dinosaurs and some 75% of all species.

More fairy tale.

The only thing that has killed off anything on such a large scale was the Flood.

Somehow mammals survived, thrived, and became dominant across the planet.

Fairy tale.

Now we have new clues about how that happened.

People are certainly creative in coming up with fantasy stories.

Wiped out
The work supports a growing body of research showing that when the dinosaurs were wiped out, it wasn’t simply a case of one group of animals dying off and another taking over as was previously thought.
Smaller mammals seemed to be better equipped to survive since they could hide more easily, for example, and those with a diverse diet were able to adapt more quickly, Dr Brusatte said.
‘There isn’t one magic reason why some of them lived and others died,’ he said. ‘There was probably chance and randomness involved because things changed so quickly after the asteroid hit.’
The team was surprised to learn how quickly mammals evolved after the extinction. Although the first mammals originated at the same time as the early dinosaurs – more than 200 million years ago – they remained small, about the size of badgers, when they co-existed.
A few hundred thousand years after dinosaurs disappeared, there were much larger, cow-sized species. ‘Mammals just took advantage of the opportunity and started to evolve really fast,’ Dr Brusatte said."

More fairy tale.

Even scientists (evolutionists) imply that its magical

"Magical" isn't scientific.

how fast new mammal species replaced the dinosaurs after the dinosaur extinction.

Dinosaurs didn't go extinct until after the Flood.

They even give it a name "adaptive radiation" and then pretend they have explained it.

They certainly pretend to have things figured out.

It's called "creation" and God created all creatures, including the ones replacing the dinosaurs.

They weren't replaced.

After each mass extinction there is a new creation.

False.

The Cambrian explosion was a creation event.

False.

It's simply a misinterpretation of the evidence that shows a global Flood.

Palaeontologists are as much at a loss as to how to explain the creation of new species from nothing, as cosmologists are at loss as to explaining where all laws of physics and all matter arose. In the end it all comes back to theology. Look at how immediately scientists fall back on their gods of "chance and randomness" to explain things.

You mean just like you fall back on your god of "multiple creations"?

God did not even create the earth on any one of the 6 days.

Liar.

Gen 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Not a mention on Day 1 of God creating anything but light.

You're begging the question of a gap.

There was no gap.

Verses 1 and 2 are both part of day one, the first day.

But before Day 1 in Gen 1:2 earth was already created and had become without form and void.

Saying it doesn't make it so.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Wrong you are.

Nowhere does the Bible every say that the earth "became without form and void."

Gen 1:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (1:2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (1:3) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (1:4) And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (1:5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Note that verses two, three, four and five ALL START with AND, which means that they are a continuation of verse ONE where the earth was created.
"Was" = Heb "haita" = became or was. I know its "became". "And" perfectly follows from God creating the earth since in chronological order after it was created it became without form and void. God did not create it without form and void as ....
Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; Godhimself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, H8414 he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
says. Strong's H9414 tells us God did not create the earth without form (H8414).
 

Right Divider

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"Was" = Heb "haita" = became or was. I know its "became". "And" perfectly follows from God creating the earth since in chronological order after it was created it became without form and void. God did not create it without form and void as ....
Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; Godhimself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, H8414 he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
says. Strong's H9414 tells us God did not create the earth without form (H8414).
Yes, He created it and THEN formed it to be inhabited. Not too hard to understand.
 

JudgeRightly

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"Was" = Heb "haita" = became or was.


I know its "became".

Except that it's not.

"And" perfectly follows from God creating the earth since in chronological order after it was created it became without form and void.

Begging the question.

God did not create it without form and void as ....

Because you say so?

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; Godhimself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain,H8414 he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
says. Strong's H9414 tells us God did not create the earth without form (H8414).

You seem to be forgetting that the entire six days that God created (not billions of years) were all God creating, making, and forming, and on day seven was when God CEASED creating, making, and forming.

Isaiah 45:18 refers to the whole process.
 
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