ECT How Can the Preterists be so Blind?

[tetelestai]

You have not quoted even one verse that demonstrates that upon His return a judgment will be only on the Christ rejecting Jews. Where is your evidence from the Scriptures?

Um....yes I have.

Here you go again:

(Luke 21:20-22) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Preterism doesn't have to make excuses for the above passages.

Preterists must try to pervert all the passages from the Scriptures which demonstrate that at the return of the Lord Jesus there will be a world wide judgment.

 

[God's Truth]

I'll bet. Why not, after all, you've rejected the Grace Message. (Paul's Gospel) You're fast on your way to working your way to Heaven.

Paul has the same message as the Lord and Savior.

 

[God's Truth]

Ok

Famous atheist Bertrand Russell said Jesus couldn't be who He said He was because the things Jesus said, and the things Jesus' Apostles said would happen in their lifetimes didn't happen.

Here's a list of the passages they use to make their case:

1.) Matthew 10:23--Jesus said he would return in the lifetime of his disciples.

2.) Matthew 16:27-28--Jesus said he would return with his angels to judge all men before every one standing there died.

3.) Matthew 24:29-34--Jesus said he would return in the clouds with his angels--in that generation!

4.) Acts 3:19ff--Peter said Jesus would return when all the Old Covenant prophets were fulfilled. If the Old Prophets have not been fulfilled the Old Covenant is still in effect, Matthew 5:17-18.

5.) Romans 13:12--Paul said "the day is at hand."

6.) Romans 16:20--Paul said God "will bruise Satan under your feet shortly."

7.) I Corinthians 1:4-8--Paul said the Corinthians would have the miraculous gifts until "the end," the Day of the Lord.

8.) I Corinthians 7:28-31--Paul said "the fashion of this world is passing away," and "the time is short."

9.) I Corinthians 15:51f--Paul said not all of them then living would die before the resurrection.

10.) Philippians 3:20-4:5--Paul spoke of the resurrection at Christ's coming and said "The Lord is at hand."

11.) I Timothy 6:14--Paul told Timothy to live faithfully "until the appearing of our Lord."

12.) Hebrews 9:28; 10:37--The writer said Christ would appear a second time for salvation and then asserted "in a very, very little while he that will come will come, and will not tarry." Isn't it sad that man says Christ HAS DELAYED, in spite of what this verse says? WHAT DOES INSPIRATION MEAN? DID THE WRITER LIE? WAS HE MISTAKEN?

13.) James 5:7-9--James urged his readers to be faithful "until the coming of the Lord;" he says "The coming of the Lord is at hand:" and "The judge is standing right at the door."

14.) I Peter 4:5,7,17--Peter said Jesus was then "ready to judge the living and the dead;" "the end of all things is at hand;" and "the time is come for the judgment to begin at the house of God."

15.) I John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour."

16.) Revelation--this book says no less than ten times that its predictions "must shortly come to pass," were "at hand," were to happen "quickly," there would be "no more delay," etc, etc.

Preterism doesn't have to make excuses for the above passages.

Dispensationalists/Futurists have to twist the above passages into pretzels, and atheists such as Russell know it.

I believe that some of the scriptures were about Jesus coming to those who waited for him when they died; however, that does not mean all those scriptures you gave defend full preterism. You did not rightly explain many of those scriptures you posted.

I hope you are going to answer the questions I asked you in the other post.

 

[God's Truth]

Ok

You say OK but you did not answer my questions.

Famous atheist Bertrand Russell said Jesus couldn't be who He said He was because the things Jesus said, and the things Jesus' Apostles said would happen in their lifetimes didn't happen.

Here's a list of the passages they use to make their case:

1.) Matthew 10:23--Jesus said he would return in the lifetime of his disciples.

2.) Matthew 16:27-28--Jesus said he would return with his angels to judge all men before every one standing there died.

3.) Matthew 24:29-34--Jesus said he would return in the clouds with his angels--in that generation!

I believe those scriptures tell us that Jesus was coming, at the destruction of the earthly temple is highly likely.

However, this scripture does not support that:

Ok 4.) Acts 3:19ff--Peter said Jesus would return when all the Old Covenant prophets were fulfilled. If the Old Prophets have not been fulfilled the Old Covenant is still in effect, Matthew 5:17-18.

Jesus fulfilled all the law and the prophets.


This scripture can be a warning to all no matter if Jesus was coming in their lifetime or not.

5.) Romans 13:12--Paul said "the day is at hand."

This scripture could or could not mean shortly, as in in their lifetime, or not.

6.) Romans 16:20--Paul said God "will bruise Satan under your feet shortly."


As for this scripture, we are always to live in a way where we are ready for the Lord, so that the day does not come upon us as a thief in the night.

7.) I Corinthians 1:4-8--Paul said the Corinthians would have the miraculous gifts until "the end," the Day of the Lord.

These scripture also do not solely support preterism.

8.) I Corinthians 7:28-31--Paul said "the fashion of this world is passing away," and "the time is short."

This scripture definitely does not say what you claim. That scripture is about those who are alive at his coming...those who did not have to die, they will be changed into their new bodies at a twinkling of the eye:
9.) I Corinthians 15:51f--Paul said not all of them then living would die before the resurrection.


Of course, because when Jesus comes it will be at that time he raises us all from the dead:
10.) Philippians 3:20-4:5--Paul spoke of the resurrection at Christ's coming and said "The Lord is at hand."


Again, we must be ready so as not to be surprised and caught in sin:
11.) I Timothy 6:14--Paul told Timothy to live faithfully "until the appearing of our Lord."

12.) Hebrews 9:28; 10:37--The writer said Christ would appear a second time for salvation and then asserted "in a very, very little while he that will come will come, and will not tarry." Isn't it sad that man says Christ HAS DELAYED, in spite of what this verse says? WHAT DOES INSPIRATION MEAN? DID THE WRITER LIE? WAS HE MISTAKEN?

Jesus comes for all who belong to him, when we die.

13.) James 5:7-9--James urged his readers to be faithful "until the coming of the Lord;" he says "The coming of the Lord is at hand:" and "The judge is standing right at the door."

14.) I Peter 4:5,7,17--Peter said Jesus was then "ready to judge the living and the dead;" "the end of all things is at hand;" and "the time is come for the judgment to begin at the house of God."

15.) I John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour."

16.) Revelation--this book says no less than ten times that its predictions "must shortly come to pass," were "at hand," were to happen "quickly," there would be "no more delay," etc, etc.

Preterism doesn't have to make excuses for the above passages.

Dispensationalists/Futurists have to twist the above passages into pretzels, and atheists such as Russell know it.

Most those scripture have nothing to do with preterism.

 

[God's Truth]

Questions for tetelestai,

1. If the wrath of God is poured out after the tribulation is over, then what do Preterists believe the tribulation was, and what is the wrath of God?

2. How do you account for the creation still being subject to decay? (Romans 8:18-23)

3. What is the Preterist's view of a thousand years?

4. Isaiah says that our dead bodies will rise, (Isaiah 26:19); Jesus' physical body was raised from the dead, (Acts 17:29), and so our physical bodies will be raised from the dead too, (Romans 8:10). Since our physical bodies do not yet raise from the dead, how do you defend Preterism to that extent?

Please answer these questions for me.

 

[Interplanner]

God'sT,
Russell has a point, but I would not expect him to understand a distinction between the DofJ and the last day. If he had heard Pastor P. Holford in 1805 throughout the UK, he might have been gripped with the truth of Christ about the DofJ, although still not understood the detached last day.

Put simply, all the apostles (esp. Paul) thought there would be an immediate succession of the end of the world after what happened in Judea. Paul's teaching is chronicled by Luke, so see Luke 21 for that. However, Mk 13 and Mt24B allow for a delay, and Peter explains and defends a delay.

Historian K. Lattourrette says one of the first tasks of the remaining apostles after the DofJ was to account for the delay. The DofJ had taken place, clearly. But the end of time was still ahead. Vol 1, p43.

Now to your questions:
1, this is answered because it is historically clear that the Father did delay the end of time. I don't find the wrath on earth to be described very extensively; it seems it will take place very quickly, because how can one moment of mankind bear the punishment of all mankind who has refused the truth? That's not how it will happen. God will judge each person, not in an event on earth, but in the final judgement, either for life in the NHNE or eternal punishment.

2, the entropy of life on earth continues. This will not change until the NHNE. But don't confuse 'pictures' of the NHNE with simply this world in perfected form. God and Christ are the temple and the light of that world. It will be very different.

3, The very long reign of Christ, expressed by John after the devastation of the harlot (Israel/Judaism) and the blessed wedding of Christ and church, means that John must have realized the delay before the end of time would be very long. 1000 simply means virtually beyond count in many sample passages in the OT and Psalms and Prophets.

4, Defend it from what?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Um....yes I have.

Here you go again:

(Luke 21:20-22) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

This passage is in regard to the events of 70AD but at this point in time Jerusalem is still trodden down by the Gentiles. So the times of the Gentiles is not yet fulfilled.

I have already explained this to you and all you proved is the fact that you cannot even understand this simple thing.

And of course you answered nothing which I said here:

When the Lord Jesus returns to the earth those from "all nations" will be judged:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt.25:41).​

There is absolutely no reason to believe that only "some" of those from all nations will be judged when He returns. There is nothing said there which even hints that only some of those from all nations will be judged. Of course all of mankind will be judged when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth.

You said:

We know from secular history that judgment came only upon the Christ rejecting Jews from 66AD - 70AD.

That means that the return of the Lord Jesus has not yet happened because when he returns there will be a judgment in regard to people from all the nations, not just Christ rejecting Jews.

That also means that when the word "everyone" is used here it means everyone without exception:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

 

[Interplanner]

Um....yes I have.

Here you go again:

(Luke 21:20-22) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

You are limiting your understanding Jerry by not considering the DofJ as a type of return. To communicate clearly you have to allow that there is more than one kind. You are talking about the end of time, but you are not clear about that.

 

[Interplanner]

ie, what is your name or handle or title for the events in Judea of 66-70?

 

[Puppet]

Stumped me again.

We can tell youre always stumped in all of your posts. When are you going to wake up?

Go sit and pour all of your booze down your drains.

Please tell us more about this reply. We enjoy laughting. It clears our lungs out of your garbage. May have to give you the :carryon: stamp cause your hatred remarks are contagious . I can taste its evilness. Bad taste! Sickening to think like you. Its like bring possessed by your demons. Yuck!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

We can tell youre always stumped in all of your posts. When are you going to wake up?

Go sit and pour all of your booze down your drains.

Please tell us more about this reply. We enjoy laughting. It clears our lungs out of your garbage. May have to give you the :carryon: stamp cause your hatred remarks are contagious . I can taste its evilness. Bad taste! Sickening to think like you. Its like bring possessed by your demons. Yuck!

Perhaps saint john w the great has slept through too many of Dr. Breen's sermons...

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Paul has the same message as the Lord and Savior.

Paul was given "ANOTHER" message by the "Ascended Lord Jesus
Christ." That message was, The Grace Message. (Paul's Gospel)
Which Paul was to take to the gentiles. Peter preached the "Kingdom
Message" to the lost sheep of Israel.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I can taste its evilness.

Try a breath mint?

 

[Interplanner]

Paul was given "ANOTHER" message by the "Ascended Lord Jesus
Christ." That message was, The Grace Message. (Paul's Gospel)
Which Paul was to take to the gentiles. Peter preached the "Kingdom
Message" to the lost sheep of Israel.

Not at all. Peter's has the forgiveness in it for those who have sinned. And doesn't mention the kingdom. The refreshing was the coming of the Spirit for the mission of God to the nations. Abrahams' promise for all people was not a Pauline innovation; Peter has it at the end of 3; same quotes.

Paul does in fact call his work the Gospel of the kingdom, or just preacing the kingdom.

I assume you are aware that Peter drifted under pressure from 'men from James' and added on some ceremonial law to the Gospel until he was stood up by Paul? That's the only other Gospel Peter had.

 

[Puppet]

Try a breath mint?

:carryon:

 

[Puppet]

Perhaps saint john w the great has slept through too many of Dr. Breen's sermons...

Why would Breen be that interesting?

 

[aikido7]

Let us look at this verse:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

Well known preterist author Gary DeMar writes:

"The 'coming' of 'the Son of Man' is most often taught as a worldwide event since Jesus states that 'all the tribes of the earth will mourn' (Matt.24:30). Again, most Bible translations do not capture the true meaning of the Greek. A better translation is 'tribes of the land,' indicating that the event is restricted to Israel since Israel is the topic of discussion" [emphasis mine] (DeMar, Last Days Madness, 166).​

Of course that is wrong because when the Lord Jesus returns all men from the nations will be judged:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 14-15).​

We can see in the following passage that people from all the nations will be judged when the Lord Jesus returns:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt.25:31-33, 41).​

Since nothing like this happened in 70AD then it is obvious to anyone who will use their brain that the Lord Jesus did not return in 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed!

But the preterists are blind to the truths revealed in the Bible! The only thing they are good at is perverting the truth found in the Scriptures!

You probably mean to say that you yourself do not see things the same way as the Peterists.

Labeling them and name-calling them "blind" is not very helpful in my opinion.

 

[God's Truth]

God'sT,
Russell has a point, but I would not expect him to understand a distinction between the DofJ and the last day. If he had heard Pastor P. Holford in 1805 throughout the UK, he might have been gripped with the truth of Christ about the DofJ, although still not understood the detached last day.

Put simply, all the apostles (esp. Paul) thought there would be an immediate succession of the end of the world after what happened in Judea. Paul's teaching is chronicled by Luke, so see Luke 21 for that. However, Mk 13 and Mt24B allow for a delay, and Peter explains and defends a delay.

Historian K. Lattourrette says one of the first tasks of the remaining apostles after the DofJ was to account for the delay. The DofJ had taken place, clearly. But the end of time was still ahead. Vol 1, p43.

Now to your questions:
1, this is answered because it is historically clear that the Father did delay the end of time. I don't find the wrath on earth to be described very extensively; it seems it will take place very quickly, because how can one moment of mankind bear the punishment of all mankind who has refused the truth? That's not how it will happen. God will judge each person, not in an event on earth, but in the final judgement, either for life in the NHNE or eternal punishment.

2, the entropy of life on earth continues. This will not change until the NHNE. But don't confuse 'pictures' of the NHNE with simply this world in perfected form. God and Christ are the temple and the light of that world. It will be very different.

3, The very long reign of Christ, expressed by John after the devastation of the harlot (Israel/Judaism) and the blessed wedding of Christ and church, means that John must have realized the delay before the end of time would be very long. 1000 simply means virtually beyond count in many sample passages in the OT and Psalms and Prophets.

4, Defend it from what?

If it is as you say, then there is NO delay. So then, why say there was a delay? It is as if you are trying to prove preterism, but then back out of it.

I could go along with everything that is said about Jesus coming at the time of the destruction of the temple, but then there is something preterists do not seem to be able to explain to me and that is, if full preterism is true, where are our physical bodies?

 

[God's Truth]

Paul was given "ANOTHER" message by the "Ascended Lord Jesus
Christ." That message was, The Grace Message. (Paul's Gospel)
Which Paul was to take to the gentiles. Peter preached the "Kingdom
Message" to the lost sheep of Israel.

Paul says no other. You keep saying another.

I believe Paul and not you.