ECT How Can the Preterists be so Blind?

[God's Truth]

Or you could go read it 10x; then it would be more or less embedded in your thinking, and wouldn't have to be written out each and every time.

I want you to post the scripture and reference because I do not believe you understand them all correctly.

 

[God's Truth]

But don't just start at Mt24. The overall conclusions of Jesus about the fate of Israel are first stated in the parable of the vineyard back in 21 when he enters the city. This theme builds its way to 24 until you have the disciples blindsided by the things he's saying and they are asking their questions (in 24:1+) with misguided expectations.

Again, post the exact scripture reference.

 

[Interplanner]

Mt 21, 22, 23, 24. A person should read the whole thing several times because we tend to particularize and compartmentalize. That is how we don't know what it actually means.

By now you've had a chance to read it and have specific questions.

Just start at the parable of the vineyard and see what changes God declares he is making. That will make the rest clear, both what Jesus says and why the disciples questions are one step off.

 

[rainee]

Hi,

I hope I do not do anything stupid, but I'm not feeling real confident in that hope...

OK, I didn't find that much disrespect in it, but I think your last paraphrase may be the closest. A good gritty translation of what Christ said was 'It's none of your business' which in a way gets closer to the immature obsession they were showing in the gospel accounts ('whose the greatest? who gets the seat on the right?' etc).

So now you know your homework: what happens to the 'kingdom' as they thought of it in Acts?

Sigh.
Sir, you have said you do history, and I have been humbled and impressed by the amount you do have (that I've seen so far).

But you do history and I wish you would do prophecy.
So when you say I see anything do you believe I see these things the way you do? I bet you already know not.

When He said it was not for them to know times I do not see that as an insult or a negative that would in any dampen their hope. That Paul would say anything about Israel having a fabulous ending in Romans even when you believe it is to move Gentiles into action or whatever is quite amazing if you will think about it. Turns out he was just as "obsessive" as the other Jewish Apostles were. Only he is telling us something that you can only accept by faith, IMO...are you with me, sir?
And btw for me everyone of those Jews (that are Apostles) love us more than you can know. I think they willingly lived and died for you and me.
Now please Try typology.
I bet you probably are fairly good with it.
But I think it is one bit or another of one prophecy or another being made visible over and over and over...until the prophecy is finally rightly completely fulfilled. So Preterism is going to have a heck of a time if all prophecy is like that. Are you with me, sir?

Most people think of the first clues as being the times of refreshing in ch 3's sermon and the restitution. The times of refreshing come with the Spirit, and so were available to any Israelite who believed the apostles. It was to help them accomplish their prophesied mission to the nations.

Times of Refreshing I fear are tried up with...prophecy.
So you may be very right - one facet of it has already been made manifest, thank you for showing me how it could have done that.

re the restitution. To whom? I don't think this means to Israel. I think it means to God. I think it is like I Cor 15's section about the world being repaired and given back to the Father.

Hmmm, maybe so! Very good, thank you.

But the first clue should be the enthronement of Christ mentioned in the ch 2 sermon. God has made Jesus Lord and Christ. That is enthronement. The kingdom is in effect and inaugurated. It is to be proclaimed throughout the world; that this place belongs to him, a name above all names on earth.

True enough, but you already know this is a work in progress, how's that footstool under His feet doing - can you tell? Come on, say it. Prophecy.

If you find something else in Acts, please let me know, but I think that the basic shape of things is right there. The kingdom is in effect and it is a mission and it goes to the nations and Israelites were asked to get to work in it. It also had a supernatural kickstart in the Pentecost event, or in those people returning to their various homes around the Roman world.

Hmm, interesting again! I will roll it over in my mind.

 

[Danoh]

Please accept my apology Interplanner for the above post, I was feeling playful and not serious. I am sorry for sounding so disrespectful. Both you and the subject deserved better.

Give him time; he will disrespect you; just a matter of time.

As for his subject deserving better; he does not want it - with him its all about his books read into Scripture.

The guy holds the self-serving; duplicitous Josephus and those who hold to that false prophet, way higher than the fact of 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 - way higher.

This is what it is with his kind.

 

[Interplanner]

Give him time; he will disrespect you; just a matter of time.

As for his subject deserving better; he does not want it - with him its all about his books read into Scripture.

The guy holds the self-serving; duplicitous Josephus and those who hold to that false prophet, way higher than the fact of 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 - way higher.

This is what it is with his kind.

Danoh,
the Josephus thing is about accounts of the Jewish War. There aren't many. He has only a couple comments on any Biblical doctrines. So you are way off. Calm down.

Luke 13, 17, 19, 21, 23 all have more pertinent detail about the DofJ than Josephus, so you might as well get uptight about me reading Luke.

 

[God's Truth]

Mt 21, 22, 23, 24. A person should read the whole thing several times because we tend to particularize and compartmentalize. That is how we don't know what it actually means.

By now you've had a chance to read it and have specific questions.

Just start at the parable of the vineyard and see what changes God declares he is making. That will make the rest clear, both what Jesus says and why the disciples questions are one step off.

What is wrong with you? Just use scripture references.
I don't want to use your preterism references.

 

[Interplanner]

What is wrong with you? Just use scripture references.
I don't want to use your preterism references.

If an event like this took place in real time and history, and someone else wrote about it, then it is invaluable to read what they say. If you found a reference to Moses in Egyptian hierglyphics it would be amazing to see what it says. If you found an inscription marked Daniel in tablets in a Tehran museum it was be so fascinating.

What's wrong with you?

There are two other accounts of what happened. There is enough archeological corroboration to about it for the BBC to make a 1 hour docudrama. I have a 1 hour documentation of it and Masada from a Jewish archeologist. Masada itself is used as an annual graduation ceremony site by IDF.

What's wrong with you?

Haven't you ever read the monthly magaine BIBLICAL ARCHEOLOGICAL REVIEW? It is full of stuff about this. One of the well known Roman coins from the later 1st century is stamped IUDEA CAPTA on one side and shows the temple's menorah being carried through Rome on the back, or similar. In the Via Romana in Rome is a 30 ft wide carving the coin was based on showing other details of the defeat of Jerusalem.

What's wrong with you?

Dr. Schaeffer used to say: when we realize that the Bible is not only true inside its pages but true to the outside world, then we may have the revolutionary Christianity that really has something powerful to say to this lost world.

What's wrong with you?

 

[God's Truth]

If an event like this took place in real time and history, and someone else wrote about it, then it is invaluable to read what they say. If you found a reference to Moses in Egyptian hierglyphics it would be amazing to see what it says. If you found an inscription marked Daniel in tablets in a Tehran museum it was be so fascinating.

What's wrong with you?

There are two other accounts of what happened. There is enough archeological corroboration to about it for the BBC to make a 1 hour docudrama. I have a 1 hour documentation of it and Masada from a Jewish archeologist. Masada itself is used as an annual graduation ceremony site by IDF.

What's wrong with you?

Haven't you ever read the monthly magaine BIBLICAL ARCHEOLOGICAL REVIEW? It is full of stuff about this. One of the well known Roman coins from the later 1st century is stamped IUDEA CAPTA on one side and shows the temple's menorah being carried through Rome on the back, or similar. In the Via Romana in Rome is a 30 ft wide carving the coin was based on showing other details of the defeat of Jerusalem.

What's wrong with you?

Dr. Schaeffer used to say: when we realize that the Bible is not only true inside its pages but true to the outside world, then we may have the revolutionary Christianity that really has something powerful to say to this lost world.

What's wrong with you?

I couldn't care any less about writings from men.

I respect God and His written Word in the Holy Bible.

 

[Interplanner]

You just put the Bible in a make-believe category. It is not. If Acts says there was a famine all over the Roman world (11) there was. It also can be found mentioned elsewhere because it was normal knowledge.

If Acts says Jews were evicted from Rome in 18, they were. The decrees for that can also be found in normal government records AND THEY BETTER BE OR THE BIBLE IS MAKE-BELIEVE.

Lk 13, 17, 19, 21 and 23 and Mt 21, 22, 23, 24 talk about the pulverizing of Jerusalem in that generation. It is also found in normal records. AND IT BETTER BE OR THE BIBLE IS MAKE-BELIEVE.

Daniel said Messiah would be sacrificed and the city would be desolated in 490 years from the (publically known) decree to rebuild Jerusalem. IT BETTER BE OR THE BIBLE IS MAKE-BELIEVE.

Do you read the Bible or the M-BBible?

 

[God's Truth]

You just put the Bible in a make-believe category.

I did not do what you said just because you say so.

You need to humble yourself, and you should stop exalting mere men.

It is not. If Acts says there was a famine all over the Roman world (11) there was. It also can be found mentioned elsewhere because it was normal knowledge.

I could not care any less if you could not find a recording of this by historians, mere men...my faith does not depend on the proof and accuracy of mere men.

If Acts says Jews were evicted from Rome in 18, they were. The decrees for that can also be found in normal government records AND THEY BETTER BE OR THE BIBLE IS MAKE-BELIEVE.

Again, you prove you do not trust the written Word of God as preserved in the Holy Bible. You want mere men to back up the Bible.

Lk 13, 17, 19, 21 and 23 and Mt 21, 22, 23, 24 talk about the pulverizing of Jerusalem in that generation. It is also found in normal records. AND IT BETTER BE OR THE BIBLE IS MAKE-BELIEVE.

Daniel said Messiah would be sacrificed and the city would be desolated in 490 years from the (publically known) decree to rebuild Jerusalem. IT BETTER BE OR THE BIBLE IS MAKE-BELIEVE.

Do you read the Bible or the M-BBible?

The Holy Bible is not "make believe" according to what men have to say about it.

 

[God's Truth]

You are a sad case indeed. No wonder you keep speaking of Rabbis, even after Jesus says call no man 'Rabbi'.

 

[aikido7]

You would probably tell the Lord Jesus the same thing for saying the following:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn.8:44).​

I agree with the massive historical consensus that the Gospel of John is mostly full of early Christian theology--not much to do with actual historical facts about Jesus.

The verse you are quoting is some anti-Semitic vitriol placed into Jesus' mouth after the crucifixion. Clearly, this depiction of Jesus by John shows that the Galilean rabbi does not "walk his talk."

 

[Interplanner]

sorry but you don't get it. You really, really don't want a Bible that is not true to all reality. I'm not talking about it being dependent on men, but supported by normal knowledge. If it snows in winter in the real world, I hope it does so in the Bible or else it was written by Fellini or Lewis Carroll.

Just so you know, it is precisely your thinking that the Bible is not true to the rest of the world that a close family member disregards what the Bible says in areas like homosexuality (because he thinks modern science says something else about its origins). The only area that's true is about salvation in Christ. So this person thinks that homosexuality is quite compatible with Christianity.

Every effort must be made to show that the Bible is true to actual verifiable things going on in any other records, to show that is not just true in some narrow sense like you are saying. "These things (the Gospel and the start of the church) were not done in a corner" says Paul in Acts 26. He showed in that talk that anyone could see what had been done was historical and known to the public.

 

[Interplanner]

You are a sad case indeed. No wonder you keep speaking of Rabbis, even after Jesus says call no man 'Rabbi'.

Ha! On just two things: marriage/divorce practices, and one of them on why the multiple author theory of the torah is NOT true. What is your problem? I don't keep speaking of them.

But so you know Acts 5 has a scene with Gamaliel in it (student of Hillel) and the result is Judaism leaves the church alone. Are you now suspicious of Luke for including that? You should be, after tearing me apart.

 

[God's Truth]

Ha! On just two things: marriage/divorce practices, and one of them on why the multiple author theory of the torah is NOT true. What is your problem? I don't keep speaking of them.

But so you know Acts 5 has a scene with Gamaliel in it (student of Hillel) and the result is Judaism leaves the church alone. Are you now suspicious of Luke for including that? You should be, after tearing me apart.

Luke does not call him Rabbi Gamaliel, but you do.

 

[God's Truth]

sorry but you don't get it. You really, really don't want a Bible that is not true to all reality. I'm not talking about it being dependent on men, but supported by normal knowledge. If it snows in winter in the real world, I hope it does so in the Bible or else it was written by Fellini or Lewis Carroll.

Just so you know, it is precisely your thinking that the Bible is not true to the rest of the world that a close family member disregards what the Bible says in areas like homosexuality (because he thinks modern science says something else about its origins). The only area that's true is about salvation in Christ. So this person thinks that homosexuality is quite compatible with Christianity.

Every effort must be made to show that the Bible is true to actual verifiable things going on in any other records, to show that is not just true in some narrow sense like you are saying. "These things (the Gospel and the start of the church) were not done in a corner" says Paul in Acts 26. He showed in that talk that anyone could see what had been done was historical and known to the public.

Are you directing this post to me, or someone else?

I have no idea what you are talking about when you speak of homosexuality.

I do not believe the Bible is true because it can be historically validated.

I believe the written Word of God is true because Jesus revealed it to me, just as he said he would do for those who obey him.

 

[Interplanner]

Luke does not call him Rabbi Gamaliel, but you do.

But everyone knew. The point is he was quoted. the other thing you are concerned about wouldn't have mattered in a written record.

 

[Interplanner]

Are you directing this post to me, or someone else?

I have no idea what you are talking about when you speak of homosexuality.

I do not believe the Bible is true because it can be historically validated.

I believe the written Word of God is true because Jesus revealed it to me, just as he said he would do for those who obey him.

Then you have accepted the modern liberal neo-orthodox way of doing truth and seeing the Bible. The radical thing about the Bible is that it is true to the real world, to what is out there. It is not mental. It is not subjective. It is not make-believe.

When it says a 2-3 person stone was moved and the body of Christ was gone, on Resurrrection morning, these are historic facts that happened in space and time. they are not just "true" for us as Christians because we find meaning in them. They actually happened. The Roman guards would have stopped 2-3 women or men who came. They could not stop angelic entities, which they said they saw.

When Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration, if Peter had had a watch on, and it started at 10:03 and they talked for 10 minutes, Jesus would have come back to Peter at 10:13. It was a real event.

In the beginning of each of the gospels there is a very unusual healing. Before healing a paralytic, Jesus forgives his sins. The leaders of Judaism are PO'd for the blasphemy of that. So Jesus asks which is easier: to forgive or to have the guy walk out of there. Obviously 'you are forgiven' is easier, there is no proof in the real world, except for the joy the person develops later. So what does Jesus do? He says 'get up and walk away.'

Why does Jesus self-conciously say this? Mt 9:9: "So that you may know that the (Danielic) Son of Man has authority to forgive sins..."
He proves one side by the other. Do you see? The forgiveness of sins is WORTHLESS unless the other side is true at the same time, that Jesus did things in the visible, external, proveable world. "So that we may know..." He does not bypass our reason, our sense of truth, reality, proof.

The Christian message is not subjective.

 

[Danoh]

Yeah, sure, Interplanner - Jesus was all about what the eye insists on seeing...

John 1:
50. Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51. And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

John 20:
29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

1 Corinthians 1:
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:
1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Men either believe, or they do not, and your Scholastic Mysticism, Interplanner, only proves this fact.

For you yourself refuse to believe that what is asserted in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is more then sufficient.

In this, you are your own version of that disbelieving family member.

For the issue is Hebrews 11's:

1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Perhaps, Interplanner, you should change your handle to Empiricist.

Fact of the matter is that men either choose to believe Romans 6:23, or they choose not to.