GUNS!

[TomO]

Thats funny TomO. So what is the ballistic difference between a 22WMR and a 5.7?

You don't see any either huh? :think:




:chuckle: Okay, Okay...yeah, I know.

:idunno: I just find it amusing that you 'dis the 9mm for it's lack of wounding potential (in favor of the .45; which is an on-going debate) and go with 5.7X28 because "OMG HOMEINVADING OPERATORS IN IIIA!" :noway:

With this as your choice you lose wound potential and gain tons of penetration (which is not good for the neighbors). If you are out in the middle of nowhere that's cool but if that's the case make mine an AKM, thank you very much. :e4e:

 

[TomO]

While I do hand load, I guess I am a bit more concerned with over penetration than I am with the likelihood of facing and enemy with body armor.

^^^
This lain:

 

[Nick M]

:idunno: I just find it amusing that you 'dis the 9mm for it's lack of wounding potential (in favor of the .45; which is an on-going debate) and go with this because "OMG HOMEINVADING OPERATORS IN IIIA!" :noway:

As a side note, the SKS shoots straighter than the AKM, but you already knew that. The others might not have.

Below is quality reading I posted a while back. It is about penetration and some myths out there.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

 

[TomO]

As a side note, the SKS shoots straighter than the AKM, but you already knew that. The others might not have.

Just about anything shoots straighter than an AKM. :chuckle:

Below is quality reading I posted a while back. It is about penetration and some myths out there.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Yep...I remember when you posted it last time...it's actually what got me started researching the 5.56x45 as a home defense option. One of these days I'm going to be retiring my 12ga in the closet in favor of an AR...unfortunately right now I have more pressing financial obligations. :sigh:

 

[Nick M]

Yep...I remember when you posted it last time...it's actually what got me started researching the 5.56x45 as a home defense option. One of these days I'm going to be retiring my 12ga in the closet in favor of an AR...unfortunately right now I have more pressing financial obligations. :sigh:

6.8 SPCII and use the Hornady 115Vmax or OTM. The vmax will not over penetrate. The OTM will not either, as long as it put it through some flesh.

I can't see retiring a 12ga.

 

[jwp98]

Has anyone heard of Paul Castel's center axis relock system? What do you think of it?

 

[TomO]

Has anyone heard of Paul Castel's center axis relock system? What do you think of it?

From what I've seen it appears to be built on solid principles but I have to admit; I don't know enough to post intelligently on the subject. :idunno:

 

[TomO]

6.8 SPCII and use the Hornady 115Vmax or OTM. The vmax will not over penetrate. The OTM will not either, as long as it put it through some flesh.

:chuckle: I'm beginning to think you own stock in something connected to this load.

Yeah...I know, but there is too much uber-cheap 5.56 floating around and I don't have the room to set up for reloading....nor the time to mess with it.

I can't see retiring a 12ga.

Well....Lets just say setting off to the side a bit then.

 

[lightbringer]

:chuckle: I'm beginning to think you own stock in something connected to this load.

Yeah...I know, but there is too much uber-cheap 5.56 floating around and I don't have the room to set up for reloading....nor the time to mess with it.

Well....Lets just say setting off to the side a bit then.

Three things old people like to do:

1. Save money like buying ammo on sale!

2. Save time by not reloading, so that they have more time for shooting!

3. Hang on to old proven tools or at least keeping (off to the side a bit) them handy!

Welcome Tom, you've officially arrived! :chuckle:

 

[jwp98]

Yes, I am quite familiar with it. It has some advantages in select cqb situations for those not wearing significant body armor. Not good at all for those with armor and a chest plate, because it take your plate out of play and exposes you vitals to the threat. It can also be a bit disorienting when moving quickly in stairwells and non perfect footing situations.

Thanks, good points.

I'm not too keen on discharging a weapon 4 inches from my head either.

What would work with armor? My CAR instructor teaches 2 torso, 3 head, quick as you can of course. Taking into account a 20% hit rate from 6 feet... no cause for optimism if the bad guy is trained and equipt.

 

[TomO]

I would assume you are qualified to assess the threats that you are likely to encounter, based on your life's experience, contacts, geographical region, and political climate.

I KNOW MY HUSBAND IS QUALIFIED.

Mocking me for agreeing with my husbands solution, after all the barrier, armor, gel, and live tissue testing we have done, without knowing anything about our family or situation is just infantile. You may fancy yourself a real expert on firearms and ammo, but I am married to one, and I know one when I see one. You write 3 sentences and it tells me right where you are at. I am just a chick and I have more small arms training an knowledge than you do.

"With this as your choice you lose wound potential and gain tons of penetration (which is not good for the neighbors)." This is completely false. You never even asked me what ammo we shoot, and considering how naive you are about this subject, I feel sad for you making statements that show your ignorance.

A professional would have asked, "what projectile, velocity and twist rate are you using?" "Have you tested it in a calibrated gel block, if so, what were the results".

You are going to be sooooo much fun to have around.

 

[lightbringer]

I would assume you are qualified to assess the threats that you are likely to encounter, based on your life's experience, contacts, geographical region, and political climate.

I'm sure Tom is aware of the crime rate in his area, as well as the methods that are being employed by the criminal element there.

We were discussing home invasion, (or at least I thought we were since you brought up the fact your guns were hanging on the bed post) any one that can not assess the threats that would present themselves during an invasion of their own home should build a bullet proof safe room and hide.

I KNOW MY HUSBAND IS QUALIFIED.

Congratulations, this is the first instance of a husband being mentioned (albeit you did mention someone named Crane) I wasn't sure if you were a man or woman, nor have any of us talked about qualifications!?

Mocking me for agreeing with my husbands solution, after all the barrier, armor, gel, and live tissue testing we have done, without knowing anything about our family or situation is just infantile. You may fancy yourself a real expert on firearms and ammo, but I am married to one, and I know one when I see one. You write 3 sentences and it tells me right where you are at.

There was no mocking going on, Tom was having some fun that you seem not to have picked up on.

I am just a chick and I have more small arms training an knowledge than you do.

This may be more your feelings than Toms. If so, sorry you have had whatever experience you encountered to make you see all men in that light!

"With this as your choice you lose wound potential and gain tons of penetration (which is not good for the neighbors)." This is completely false. You never even asked me what ammo we shoot, and considering how naive you are about this subject, I feel sad for you making statements that show your ignorance.

We each have our own opinions about what is the best weapon and or ammo, depending on the situation or application, that battle will never die.

There was no mention to your husband building his own ammo, I had to respond to you a couple times about penetrator rounds before you finally mentioned that fact.

I think if you will take a moment to cool down/calm down you will find Tom is not only a nice guy but one with considerable experience.

 

[lightbringer]

You are going to be sooooo much fun to have around.

:chuckle:

 

[lightbringer]

Yes, I am quite familiar with it. It has some advantages in select cqb situations for those not wearing significant body armor. Not good at all for those with armor and a chest plate, because it take your plate out of play and exposes you vitals to the threat. It can also be a bit disorienting when moving quickly in stairwells and non perfect footing situations.

Good points all, that is why teams that wear heavy armor train and practice in order to adapt and overcome obstacles presented by their equipment.

 

[lightbringer]

Thanks, good points.

I'm not too keen on discharging a weapon 4 inches from my head either.

Most do not like firing a weapon that close to their face? The more you do it the more comfortable you will become.

What would work with armor? My CAR instructor teaches 2 torso, 3 head, quick as you can of course. Taking into account a 20% hit rate from 6 feet... no cause for optimism if the bad guy is trained and equipt.

A 20% hit rate at 6 feet just shows you have not mastered the technique and need to apply yourself more...practice, practice, practice and it will get better!

 

[TomO]

I am always calm,

Of course you are.

and you too make way to many assumptions about me.

:noid: That's cuz he thinks he know stuff.

I don't take advice from guys that think they know stuff, but actually can't even load their own shells. I own 3 Dillon 650's set up for various calibers, and have been loading my own shells for over 40 years. I have mixed up, chilled and calibrated hundreds of gel blocks over the last 3 decades and been part of many tests concerning both external and terminal ballistics.

I bet you know stuff.

I don't take kindly to being mocked by an amateur,

:think: Us amateurs always go for the easy targets.

and I don't tell him what to use for his situation.

:idunno: I would think that with your experience you would be eager to instruct rather than get all wadded up.

I simply said what I use, based on my knowledge, experience, and training. If you don't like it, then choose something that makes sense to you based on your situation.

:IA: And don't poke no fun! Operatin' is serious biznezz!

But don't put up pictures mocking me and my sex, like all women need to hide when an intruder shows up.

:AMR: Is that what got you fired up?....To be honest it never occurred to me that you would take offense at the photo like that. The "hiding wimmenz" thing never occurred to me. I was just poking fun at the 5.7 cliche. My wife doesn't hide either.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

You all want to argue handguns......

Actually, I really don't see a whole lot of arguing on the gun threads. We trade info and poke fun here and there but it's all pretty much good natured. Care to join us? :e4e:

intrude in my home, and you will get a 110 vmax moving 3300 fps. to the head; out of a suppressed Mark 11, and I still have 19 identical rounds to play with (you ever seen what happens to the head of a 200 lb. mammal shot with this round through a 9 twist barrel? I have. I don't even bother picking up a handgun when I hear something go bump in the night. Only amateurs bring only a handgun to a fight.:chuckle:

No doubt.

 

[Delmar]

I am always calm, and you too make way to many assumptions about me. I don't take advice from guys that think they know stuff, but actually can't even load their own shells. I own 3 Dillon 650's set up for various calibers, and have been loading my own shells for over 40 years. I have mixed up, chilled and calibrated hundreds of gel blocks over the last 3 decades and been part of many tests concerning both external and terminal ballistics. I don't take kindly to being mocked by an amateur, and I don't tell him what to use for his situation. I simply said what I use, based on my knowledge, experience, and training. If you don't like it, then choose something that makes sense to you based on your situation. But don't put up pictures mocking me and my sex, like all women need to hide when an intruder shows up.

You all want to argue handguns......intrude in my home, and you will get a 110 vmax moving 3300 fps. to the head; out of a suppressed Mark 11, and I still have 19 identical rounds to play with (you ever seen what happens to the head of a 200 lb. mammal shot with this round through a 9 twist barrel? I have. I don't even bother picking up a handgun when I hear something go bump in the night. Only amateurs bring only a handgun to a fight.:chuckle:

This not being a firearms forum, we have tended to try to keep our firearms discussions on the light hearted side. With the possible exception of anti gun people spamming our threads, that is. I hope you can trust me when I say that I don't believe Tom was trying to diminish you because you are a female or trying to insult you. Given your obvious experience I, for one, am looking forward to more discussions with you on these topics, provided they continue to be fun and not a source of people getting their shorts in a bundle. We get enough of that nonsense when dealing with the God haters in the theology section.

 

[Delmar]

I agree with most of what you said, and it is fun to talk toys and tactics.

What I don't agree with is the picture of a grown woman, in a potentially lethal threat situation, WITH A CELL PHONE IN HER HAND: AND HER OTHER ARM AROUND HER CHILD. And then the mocking statements to follow. Poor defenseless little girls, "run and hide while the "MAN" of the house protects you".

Get serious.

I guess I am missing something :idunno: It seemed to me that the photo was making fun of the bravado of the "man of the house" wielding his " overpriced "22 magnum", and yes such a man would expect his women to cower behind him. Clearly this does not describe you or your husband.

On the subject of the 5.7 being referred to as an overpriced .22 I will have to differ to those who know more about the subject, which apparently includes you.

 

[Christ's Word]

You all can believe what you want and have your light hearted discussions, I will just bow out and let the status quo return. You guys obviously have so much experience, nothing I might know would be of any value..... Like lightbringer said, its just not worth it.

Sorry for taking things so "seriously". As you were.

 

[lightbringer]

I am always calm, and you too make way too many assumptions about me.

I've made no assumptions about you! Please post an example.

(you ever seen what happens to the head of a 200 lb. mammal shot with this round through a 9 twist barrel? I have.

You ever seen what a human head looks like after a 168 gr. 7.62NATO passes through it?

But you got me on the weight, (200 lbs.) my game was averaging 125/150 depending if they were from the North or the South.