GUNS!

[aikido7]

Has anyone else visited the national NRA headquarters in Virginia?

There is a big mural on the wall that has paintings of the flag and a colonist with a rifle.

It also has the words of the Second Amendment. The strange thing is the words "well-regulated militia" have been replaced by two dots [..].

Curious.

 

[Foxfire]

Any "wildcat" enthusiasts here?

Thinking about punching my old 7mm Rem. Express (.280 Rem.) out to a 7mm Ackley.

Am hoping to achieve 'near' 7mm Rem Mag. ballistics and trajectories with a non belted brass.

My previous effort in a wildcat was with a Brno Mau. 98 chambered to .257 RCBS. Great "Loper" cal.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

I read this story in the early '90s about how the San Antonio Police Department were deciding on a new issue carry gun for their officers to replace their revolvers. They started multiple tests and the only two guns to pass every test were a Sig Sauer (probably P226), the other being a Glock (probably M17). So to come to a conclusion, the testers decided to hit the blank loaded guns as if they were baseballs, with baseball bats. They couldn't break either gun, but the Sig fired one time. They don't know why the Sig fired after dis-assembly and could not repeat it. The Glock continued to operate perfectly throughout the test. That's why I like Glocks most, and Sigs next.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

I read this story in the early '90s about how the San Antonio Police Department were deciding on a new issue carry gun for their officers to replace their revolvers. They started multiple tests and the only two guns to pass every test were a Sig Sauer (probably P226), the other being a Glock (probably M17). So to come to a conclusion, the testers decided to hit the blank loaded guns as if they were baseballs, with baseball bats. They couldn't break either gun, but the Sig fired one time. They don't know why the Sig fired after dis-assembly and could not repeat it. The Glock continued to operate perfectly throughout the test. That's why I like Glocks most, and Sigs next.

That is an awesome story. Baseball bat's. :chuckle:

My wife tried, with an eye to buy, a 380 Sig (239 maybe? look's like a very similar 380 Walther) that stovepiped literally almost every time she fired it. Me and the range officer fired it without any problem's at all, so it undoubtedly was something in how she was holding the pistol when firing, but still, this never happened a single time when she was firing the 1911s.

I fired a cheaper SW polymer gun once (.40 S&W chambering I think), a DA gun, and I automatically doubletapped a second round into the ceiling almost every time I fired it. That was really freaky, and, that never happened with a 1911.

Never had a Glock stovepipe on me, and never heard of it either. Also I never inadvertantly doubletapped a Glock either.


Daniel

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Has anyone else visited the national NRA headquarters in Virginia?

There is a big mural on the wall that has paintings of the flag and a colonist with a rifle.

It also has the words of the Second Amendment. The strange thing is the words "well-regulated militia" have been replaced by two dots [..].

Curious.

My guess is because that part is officially irrelevant since Heller. Our right, is to own and to have firearm's, apart from any militia or lack of a militia.


Daniel

 

[Dan Emanuel]

There are many things that are negligent. Maybe you don't know what the word means.

Plain clothe's police officer's sometime's leave there gun in a public restroom stall, and when they do, they are treated reasonably about it. They aren't denied the right to carry a firearm for life, because they accidentally left there standard issue hanging on the stall door hook 1 day. In fact this happen's more frequently than I'm sure either a Glock or a 1911 has accidentally discharged due to their design. The bigger risk with either of these tool's is the operator, not the pistol.

I think its negligent to consider a right forfeit due to a single mistake, even if its a really big 1 --but when its considered forfeit due to a little, made-up mistake like accidentally dropping a gun, whether or not it goes on to discharge, that frost's my rear end. :AMR1:

A 1911 has not discharged with the thumb safety engaged in any known tests. Perhaps an internet warrior can find one or make one up.

Does the thumb safety immobilize the firing pin? (I should know this, but every time I wonder about it, my 1911 is always loaded so I don't want to clear it just so I can test it myself.)

N/A

If your right about a 1911 never discharging with thumb safety engaged, even when dropped from height while in battery, then yeah --N/A. In which case, the 1 time I dropped my pistol, they're was literally zero risk since thumb safety was engaged, it being holstered and all. Sometime's, once in a great while, I'll find the thumb safety disengaged while holstered. It really freaked me out the 1st and 2nd time, and now not so much, since I've talked myself through how the 1911 still require's that I disengage the grip safety and squeeze the trigger before go bang.

What?

They'res only 1 way for a Glock to go bang, and they're are no precondition's or prerequisite's. If it has a round in the chamber, then it will shoot if the trigger is pulled, no matter what. Even if you're fumbling it, trying to recover it before it hit's the ground, and you're finger find's it's way into the trigger guard and you squeeze to catch the thing. Go bang. Doesn't happen with 1911.

That was my point.

All right, then we're in agreement.

The theory was that if dropped on the muzzle (good luck) from a height, a 1911 will discharge from the inertia hit of the firing pin on the round. Obviously, this hasn't actually happened and proven.

I thought that it must have happened, since why else would Glock's be known for not firing when dropped from height's in battery? Is it just Glock marketing, that conveniently forget's to mention that the 1911 also will not discharge when dropped from height's in battery? :idunno:

Being that the firing pin is seated by spring compression, and that the force required to ignite the primer is known, knowing also the mass of the firing pin and the spring constant and friction coefficient within the firing pin cylinder, it is calculable from what height you'd have to drop the thing from, in order for they're to be enough force when it land's directly on the end of the muzzle, to discharge. I couldn't do it, but it is calculable. It sound's very unlikely, but it doesn't sound impossible.

Actually, SOCOM just got a bigger bullet for the M4.

I was thinking of this 1. Their very loud.


Daniel

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

That is an awesome story. Baseball bat's. :chuckle:

My wife tried, with an eye to buy, a 380 Sig (239 maybe? look's like a very similar 380 Walther) that stovepiped literally almost every time she fired it. Me and the range officer fired it without any problem's at all, so it undoubtedly was something in how she was holding the pistol when firing, but still, this never happened a single time when she was firing the 1911s.

I fired a cheaper SW polymer gun once (.40 S&W chambering I think), a DA gun, and I automatically doubletapped a second round into the ceiling almost every time I fired it. That was really freaky, and, that never happened with a 1911.

Never had a Glock stovepipe on me, and never heard of it either. Also I never inadvertantly doubletapped a Glock either.


Daniel

The Sig P239 can be had in 9 mm, .40 S&W and .357 Sig. It's not available in .380. I have a P239 single stack .40 S&W and have had zero issues with it. I also have two different Sig P232s in .380 ACP, no problems with either one. One I bought new, the other used. Sig also makes a Sig P238 in .380, but it looks like a Colt Mustang. Of the above guns that may look like a Walther, the P232 comes closest. My wife and I have several Walthers. The problem with Walthers is that they demand cleaning somewhere after 50 rounds. I don't have a problem with that but some might. Sigs are more forgiving and extremely comfortable to shoot with Hogue grips.

A friends daughter was joining the local police department and their standard issue was Glock 23s in .40. She routinely had a problem because she flinched causing a stovepipe. They switcher her over to a Glock 19 9 mm and the problem was solved. No problem with the gun, it was the shooter.

 

[Nick M]

Being that the firing pin is seated by spring compression, and that the force required to ignite the primer is known, knowing also the mass of the firing pin and the spring constant and friction coefficient within the firing pin cylinder, it is calculable from what height you'd have to drop the thing from, in order for they're to be enough force when it land's directly on the end of the muzzle, to discharge. I couldn't do it, but it is calculable. It sound's very unlikely, but it doesn't sound impossible.

When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more “accidental discharges” with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.

I’ve heard this bad rap against the 1911A1 (henceforth referred to as Colt) many times both in this group and in the magazines. That dropping a Colt on its muzzle being capable of igniting a primer goes contrary to my intuition. I finally decided to test this theory. I have done two tests. The first tries to scale the problem. The second involves actually dropping a gun.

Test #1 is to determine how much force is required to compress the firing pin spring sufficiently for the business end to protrude from the bolt face. Once this value is determined, the firing pin can be weighed and the number of Gs required to exert this force can be computed.

The test firearm is a box-stock Series 70 Colt Gold Cup. It was freshly cleaned and all oil film that could be wiped off was. The test setup is simple. I clamped the slide in a vice with the rear pointing up. A small drift was placed against the firing pin and Orhaus lab weights were stacked on the firing pin until the spring was compressed sufficiently that the firing pin barely protruded from the bolt face. Then the drift was weighed on an Orhaus triple beam balance and the weight was added to the lab weights weight. Finally the firing pin was weighed on the same balance. Results:

Firing pin weight: 4.4 grams

Total weight required: 506 grams

Computed G force: 506/4.4 = 115 G

Note that this is the minimum force needed to make the firing pin barely protrude. This does not account for the force required to actually fire the primer. I tried to get a rough idea of what this force is by putting a primer that had been inserted in a case, placed the casing in a barrel and slide assembly minus the firing pin spring and then placed weight on the firing pin sufficient to cause the first dent in the primer. The primer was a Winchester large magnum pistol primer. I ran out of weights at 4 kg. No dent. That would be equivalent to about 1000 G of force. If anyone has factory specs on the required primer force, I’d love to have them.

Keep in mind, that these static tests do NOT account for the pretty significant aerodynamic counterforce involved with a firing pin propelled at sufficient velocity to fire the primer. Once the firing pin protrudes into the bolt hole, the pin and bolt forms a fairly tight cylinder with air trapped inside. This damps the pin and absorbs some portion of the force.

Based on these results, I got brave and proceeded on to the next test. An old slide, bushing, barrel and the Gold Cup firing pin and spring were assembled. A case with a live primer was chambered and the whole assembly was duct taped to make sure the barrel stayed in battery. Then the whole assembly was dropped muzzle first down various lengths of pipe onto my asphalt driveway. The pipe guided the assembly and made sure the muzzle remained pointed straight down.

The longest pipe I could find was 15 feet long. Several drops from this altitude failed to fire the primer. The primer was marked but not enough to call it a dent. I did one more drop with the firing pin spring removed. The primer was dented pretty severely but it did NOT detonate. I suspect that with several drops, one or more might fire the primer. I got bored and my slide was getting boogered up so I stopped with the one drop.

Based on these tests, I feel confident in saying that there just ain’t no way dropping a Colt on its muzzle is going to inertially discharge the thing. I could believe that dropping a tinkered-with or hot-rodded gun could cause the sear to break, dropping the hammer and firing the gun. I would believe that people who cause ADs would claim that dropping the gun caused it ‘cuz they were embarrassed. But I would have major doubts that dropping a gun even with the firing pin spring removed would do anything.

Methinks the Colt has gotten a very bad rap and that the firing pin blocking gimmick placed on Series 80 and subsequent Colts is just that – a lawyer gimmick. Looks to me like the original Colt designers did their homework.

– John De Armond,

 

[aikido7]

My guess is because that part is officially irrelevant since Heller. Our right, is to own and to have firearm's, apart from any militia or lack of a militia.


Daniel

I understand somewhat but when the actual, literal Second Amendment to the United States Constitution becomes irrelevant we have serious national rot.

When the GOP announced they would spend the opening session of Congress by taking turns reading that document after the election, I should have maybe seen that coming. They deliberately left out much of the Constitution when it did not agree with the Republican agenda.

 

[Ktoyou]

Any "wildcat" enthusiasts here?

Thinking about punching my old 7mm Rem. Express (.280 Rem.) out to a 7mm Ackley.

Am hoping to achieve 'near' 7mm Rem Mag. ballistics and trajectories with a non belted brass.

My previous effort in a wildcat was with a Brno Mau. 98 chambered to .257 RCBS. Great "Loper" cal.

Why not go with a 7 mag. ? If you want the standard long action, look up John Sundra; his was like a Brown Wellen, I think; that is, the shoulder was moved forward. Personally I think my husband was right the 280 is a near perfect round for most game.

 

[Ktoyou]

==
[/COLOR]I'm not that big. I don't really want to carry on my ankle anyway, I just thought that tiny little Glock .45 is a neat pistol.

Daniel

That is the one I have now.

 

[Foxfire]

Why not go with a 7 mag. ? If you want the standard long action, look up John Sundra; his was like a Brown Wellen, I think; that is, the shoulder was moved forward. Personally I think my husband was right the 280 is a near perfect round for most game.

I pretty much have to agree with your hubby on that! It (the .280) rivals the .270 with it's flat trajectory coupled with a wide bullet selection that approaches .30 cal in total offerings.

My model 77 Ruger 7mm rem express (AKA .280 rem) has been my mainstay large game (fast food) rifle for a few decades. I wouldn't hesitate to put it up against anything in the Western Hemisphere. But, sadly, after those decades of faithful service, it needs to have the chamber throat refreshed. Aaaaaaand, I like to play with ballistics. I love the 7mm low ballistic coefficient characteristics.

Less powder, cheaper/more available brass and lower recoil than the 7 mag. are also factors that I'm considering. I'm an avid hand loader, so off the shelf ammo is of no concern to me.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

NRA: Gun blogs, videos, web forums threatened by new State Dept. regulation

Commonly used and unregulated internet discussions and videos about guns and ammo could be closed down under rules proposed by the State Department, amounting to a "gag order on firearm-related speech," the National Rifle Association is warning.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ed-by-new-obama-regulation/?intcmp=latestnews

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Gun grabbing making the news.

Cherished family heirlooms were among the 21 firearms Michael Roberts surrendered to the Torrance Police Department in 2010, after his doctor filed a restraining order against him.

The court order was the result of a dispute Roberts had with a member of the doctor’s staff and, after Roberts pleaded no contest, the matter was resolved. Yet, even though he filed the proper Law Enforcement Gun Release paperwork on four separate occasions, obtained clearance from the California Department of Justice and had two court orders commanding the return of his guns, police refused to hand them over.

With the backing of the National Rifle Association and California Rifle and Pistol Association, Roberts filed a federal lawsuit in May 2014, over the $15,500 worth of firearms. In the end he got the money, but not the guns. The police had had them destroyed.

Read more at: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...intcmp=ob_article_footer_text&intcmp=obinsite

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Gun news from Wisconsin:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/06/wisconsin_to_end_waiting_period_for_handgun_sales.html

 

[Nick M]

I pretty much have to agree with your hubby on that! It (the .280) rivals the .270 with it's flat trajectory coupled with a wide bullet selection that approaches .30 cal in total offerings.

This is why SF developed their own cartridge for the M4, and it uses a .277 bullet in a 30 case. It is hands down the best choice for the AR in a short barrel. 300 Blackout is a sham. You are better off with an AK in that scenario.

These failures to incapacitate spurred the 5th Special Forces Group (SFG) to design an "Enhanced Rifle Cartridge" (ERC) to outperform 5.45x39mm, 5.56, 5.8x42mm and 7.62x39mm. MSG Steve Holland (5th SFG (A)) and Cris Murray of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit (USAMU) led the ERC project to provide optimum terminal performance from an M4 with minimal changes to the weapon. Troy Lawton (Chief Ballistics Technician) and Cris Murray (Service Rifle and R&D Gunsmith) of the USAMU assisted in developing loads, and built the rifles for the ERC project.

Once the case dimensions were tweaked to fit and work in M4-compatible magazines, the project team quickly turned their attention to bore size. Derivative wildcats from 5.56mm to up 7.62mm diameter shooting bullets from 90 to 140 grains were subjected to a battery of tests, and a sweet spot emerged. The 6.5mm bullets showed the best accuracy and the 7mm bullets were the most destructive, but the 0.277-inch bullets showed almost the same accuracy and trajectory as the 6.5mm and almost the terminal performance of the 7mm. When necked down to 0.277-inch and shooting 115-grain bullets, it provided the best combination of combat accuracy, reliability and terminal performance for up to 500 meter engagements. This cartridge was deemed 6.8 Remington Special Purpose Cartridge (SPC), because 0.277 inch is 6.8mm in metric and .30 Remington provided the parent case.

The DoD did not adopt as the standard cartridge, but their are sales verified by the ammo makers. Non standard issue. The infamous Marine General Mattis pushed for it, but the machine said no. Its use now is a hunting round for the AR platform. And Ferguson defense.

Based on their experience with 7.62x39mm, the project team set a velocity goal of 200fps faster than the AK-47 ammunition from the same barrel length, with a projectile that provided a better ballistic coefficient (BC) and terminal performance. This was achieved very soon into the project using Sierra 115-grain and Hornady 110-grain Open-Tip Match (OTM) bullets. Using Ramshot 1660 powder for initial development, the team easily exceeded the 200fps goal. Shooting from an 18-inch SPR barrel, these loads shot 2635 to 2650fps, 300fps faster than the AK-47.

Unlike military-industrial-complex programs such as the XM-8, the ERC project was driven directly by Special Forces shooters at the spear's tip-- men who had been on the giving and receiving ends of fire. The 6.8 SPC was developed with less than $5,000 initial investment of government funds; later development costs were paid for by industry. This is in stark contrast to top-down "next generation" programs costing the tax-payers millions and rarely producing usable weapons systems.

Those ballistics are nearly the same as the venerable 30-30, in an AR rifle.

 

[Nick M]

Colt has filed for Chapter 11 protection.

WEST HARTFORD, Conn.--Colt Defense LLC (“Colt” and the “Company”) announced today in voluntary Chapter 11 materials filed in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware (the “Bankruptcy Court”) a process that will allow for an accelerated sale of Colt’s business operations in the US and Canada.

Colt’s current sponsor, Sciens Capital Management LLC (“Sciens”), has agreed to act as a “stalking horse bidder” and has proposed to purchase substantially all of Colt’s assets and assume secured liabilities and all liabilities related to existing agreements with employees, customers, vendors, and trade creditors. Colt intends for the sale to ensure a smooth and swift transition of the business with all of its iconic brands, products, and operations supported by a stronger balance sheet due to a significantly lower debt burden. As part of the Sciens led bid, Colt will be able to reassure its employees and local community of its commitment to continued operations in West Hartford through a long term extension on the lease for its manufacturing facilities and campus in West Hartford. In accordance with the sale process under section 363 of the Bankruptcy Code, notice of the pending sale to Sciens will be given to third parties and competing bids will be solicited, with an independent committee of Colt’s board of managers established to manage the bidding process and evaluate bids.

Sad from an historical perspective, but I guess not surprising. They have 3 weapons, the AR, SAA and 1911. And now they have competition with better products and equal products at much lower prices.

 

[Vaquero45]

Colt has filed for Chapter 11 protection.

WEST HARTFORD, Conn.--Colt Defense LLC (“Colt” and the “Company”) announced today in voluntary Chapter 11 materials filed in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware (the “Bankruptcy Court”) a process that will allow for an accelerated sale of Colt’s business operations in the US and Canada.

Colt’s current sponsor, Sciens Capital Management LLC (“Sciens”), has agreed to act as a “stalking horse bidder” and has proposed to purchase substantially all of Colt’s assets and assume secured liabilities and all liabilities related to existing agreements with employees, customers, vendors, and trade creditors. Colt intends for the sale to ensure a smooth and swift transition of the business with all of its iconic brands, products, and operations supported by a stronger balance sheet due to a significantly lower debt burden. As part of the Sciens led bid, Colt will be able to reassure its employees and local community of its commitment to continued operations in West Hartford through a long term extension on the lease for its manufacturing facilities and campus in West Hartford. In accordance with the sale process under section 363 of the Bankruptcy Code, notice of the pending sale to Sciens will be given to third parties and competing bids will be solicited, with an independent committee of Colt’s board of managers established to manage the bidding process and evaluate bids.

Sad from an historical perspective, but I guess not surprising. They have 3 weapons, the AR, SAA and 1911. And now they have competition with better products and equal products at much lower prices.

The SAA prices always blew my mind. It's neat to have a real "Colt" but not for what they wanted. Like you say, sad, but doesn't surprise me at all.

 

[Nick M]

The SAA prices always blew my mind. It's neat to have a real "Colt" but not for what they wanted. Like you say, sad, but doesn't surprise me at all.

Think of the incomparable Hickok45. He always talks up the SAA yet mentions this is the Uberti version. What are people going to buy?

I wanted a series 70 1911 and they were not in production so I bought the Springfield Armory. None of the SAs have the firing pin block. I saw a few months ago another production run of the 70 but it is too late and too much money.

 

[Pierac]

Got a new pistols for competition shooting... CZ 75 Tactical Sport ... installed upgraded front sites... extended safety and diamond carbon fiber grips! It's Sweet!!!
Oh yea... 1.75lb trigger pull from the factory! Not your carry gun for sure!

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