ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

[Sonnet]

[MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION]:

If you don't mind, I'll be praying, Deo Volente, for your coming to know Christ, as Lord and Savior.


EW

I appreciate that.

 

[Sonnet]

By an epistemological internal (dys)functionality that is not upon (epi) that which would underlie (hypo) it.

Won't happen. You cannot self-author and self-determine and self-believe.

You are the poster child for Monergism, but you don't even realize it.

The thing believed (faith) must come out of the thing heard (hearing, the noun), which is by means of the Rhema of God.

If you'd get out of the way, God's Word could save you. Your own logos from an unrenewed mind is what isn't God's Logos.

Will get back to you anon.

 

[jsjohnnt]

Yes.



I'm still in the process of evaluating it.

Meanwhile God has already worked out your salvation.

 

[intojoy]

Based upon what did God plan them?? You aren't making sense.

That's for God to know and for you not to find out. In this life.


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[intojoy]

1. Infants are innocent, blameless before God. Ergo, infants in the flood were received up to to God. So where is the injustice of God?
You conjecture on the adults. That isn't good reasoning.

2. Re addressing the people of the world outside the Godly persuasion from Noah, who were not reprobated by God, Jesus had this to say: ". . . other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
John 10:16 (KJV)

Lol


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[Sonnet]

Here's a compiled list of every usage in the NT of pas (all) as articular.

ALL (PAS) Articular in the NT

Matthew 8:34 (KJV) 34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

Matthew 13:2 (KJV) 2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

Mark 4:1 (KJV) 1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.

Mark 4:11 (KJV) 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Mark 14:64 (KJV) 64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Luke 1:10 (KJV) 10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.

Luke 6:19 (KJV) 19 And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.

Acts 1:14 (KJV) 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts 19:7 (KJV) 7 And all the men were about twelve.

Acts 27:37 (KJV) 37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.

Romans 8:32 (KJV) 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Corinthians 9:22 (KJV) 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 10:17 (KJV) 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

1 Corinthians 11:12 (KJV) 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

1 Corinthians 12:6 (KJV) 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1 Corinthians 12:19 (KJV) 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

1 Corinthians 15:27 (KJV) 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 (KJV) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

2 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV) 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV) 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:14 (KJV) 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV) 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2 Corinthians 5:18 (KJV) 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2 Corinthians 12:19 (KJV) 19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

2 Corinthians 13:2 (KJV) 2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:

Galatians 1:2 (KJV) 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Galatians 5:14 (KJV) 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV) 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 1:11 (KJV) 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Ephesians 4:10 (KJV) 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ephesians 4:15 (KJV) 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Ephesians 5:13 (KJV) 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Philippians 2:21 (KJV) 21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

Philippians 3:8 (KJV) 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Philippians 3:21 (KJV) 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Colossians 1:16 (KJV) 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 (KJV) 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:20 (KJV) 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Colossians 3:8 (KJV) 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Colossians 3:11 (KJV) 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

1 Timothy 1:16 (KJV) 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 Timothy 6:13 (KJV) 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV) 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 2:8 (KJV) 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Hebrews 2:10 (KJV) 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 3:4 (KJV) 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

Revelation 4:11 (KJV) 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

In Greek, anarthrous substantives (nouns) are the "normal" form, whereas English has no equivalent; so nouns are always misunderstood to some degree automatically when translated into English.

When the article is added, there are layers of significance included and highlighted. Understanding Greek nouns contrasted to English nouns is, in itself, a lifetime endeavor. Not many are up for it, including those who study Greek as a scholastic pursuit.

Thanks for this.

I am just looking at 1 Corinthians 15:27:

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Literal English:
all things indeed He has put in subjection, under the feet of him. when however it might be said that all things have been put in subjection, [it is] evident that [is] excepted the [one] having put in subjection to him all things.

I can't see any article there - and if we compare this to Romans 5:18, which you said was anarthrous, I'm not really seeing any difference:

Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Literal English:
so then, as by one trespass, to all men to condemnation, so also by one act of righteousness, to all men to justification of life.

I'm also wondering why you left out Romans 5 which you said included examples of articular pas.

 

[Sonnet]

This last statement is most troubling. You expect God to want something to do with you and all humanity, when you want to sit in judgment of what you think His character and motives are?

Since I responded to intojoy's particular view of God regarding election - a view which I do not recognise from scripture - then I am merely rejecting a false, invented and imaginary God.

What is really worrying is that you don't have an issue with such a view of God.

In the end, after all your careful restraint and seemingly reasonable challenges for information and continuity, etc.; the end game is that you are the final judge of God based on not even knowing Him nor comprehending His attributes.

Scripture and common sense assures one that God did not elect in such a way.

God IS love. And He demonstrated that love in that when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

'Christ died for us'...sounds simple, but it seems that this can have a raft of different realities.

The very "synergy" you presume man to have was how God's original creation could NOT be corrupted beyond a certain point to remove the latent functionality that God designed within man as in His own image. What you "think" is synergy is from the origianl Monergistic creation, and that's a GOOD (functional) thing.

Instead of seeing man as unable to be dysfunctionalized from God's original creation, you insist man must have some inherent synergistic capability that is beyond the original creation AND the new creation. You, unbeknownst to yourself consciously, are presuming man to be greater than God.

If faith is indeed morally neutral then this would be a straw man argument.

Whatever the rest of the fallout is, I'm not convinced you're open and searching for truth; but instead just stoically keeping a binary-based false dichotomy in full stirred-up mode for your own sense of superiority at playing both ends against the middle.

I certainly don't feel superior and recognise many here with great intellects.

Certain claims made regarding how God operates need to be challenged I would say.

The truth is that the timeless and non-spatial God created time and space. He's no-when and every-when (relative to creation), and He's no-where and every-where (relative to creation). He foreknew and predestined those (as a category of individuals, of which He also was aware of whom they would be according to that election) who would commune from time into timelessness with Him to be conformed to the image of His Son.

There is no "when" for God, so all references to time are Incarnational expressions for man's sake. There is no Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation) in that context. There is no "pre-" or "post-" in that context. God pervades time.

There is no "eternity past". God alone is eternal. All else had a beginning, and either has an end or is everlasting. Eternal is not everlasting. And eternal is not durative endless time in arrears and forward. Eternal is timeless. The same context is applied to spatiality/non-spatiality.

Sounds reasonable.

You sitting in judgement of God because your entire corrupted dysfucntional mind cannot conceive of these things and self-determining whether God is worthy of your "faith" is the height of sin as the pride of life. You presume to establish a gauntlet for God to run in order to be worthy of your faith or love, or whatever.

So you would have no problem believing in the God described by Calvinism?

Salvation begins with YOU seeing yourself for what you are NOT and CANNOT be without the love and grace and mercy and faith and repentance that comes only from God. It doesn't begin with your checklist of alleged qualifications for God being met according to your standards of your abysmal self-justified superiority to the Creator as the created.

Frankly, TULIP makes God repulsive; but, reassuringly, such a God is not found in scripture.

There is enough latent functionality left from the original Monergistic creation for all men to do that, but it's not Synergism when that happens. It's the preeminence of a God so good and loving and powerful that even the lapse of the cosmos cannot dysfunctionalize mankind beyond God's reach.

Such selective love isn't how Jesus described it. Even if one does not turn and 'look' to Christ, nevertheless, there is abundant provision.

John 3:14-16 remains problematic for you.

Man's reprobation is his own. The will can only choose according to an unrenewed mind. Yet while the breath of life remains in any human, there can salvation for any of the all that Christ died for.

You want an unconditional God according to your own conditions. And you're just taunting others on both sides of a binary-based false dichotomy.

Choose you this day whom you will serve. If you choose or repent or hear or believe, it will be Monergism because God is the uncaused cause.

We are not quantitavitely a new creation after salvation, but qualitatively new. The entire binary is based upon quantifying that which can only be qualitative.

Last sentence???

And English speakers have no grid for qualitative distinctions, because English doesn't have anarthrous noun constructs.

You're beating the air. But you can stop.

Remains to be seen.

 

[Sonnet]

By an epistemological internal (dys)functionality that is not upon (epi) that which would underlie (hypo) it.

Won't happen. You cannot self-author and self-determine and self-believe.

Straw man.
John 12:32, Acts 7:51, Romans 2:14-15.

You are the poster child for Monergism, but you don't even realize it.

The thing believed (faith) must come out of the thing heard (hearing, the noun), which is by means of the Rhema of God.

If you'd get out of the way, God's Word could save you. Your own logos from an unrenewed mind is what isn't God's Logos.

It's also possible that certain particular views promulgated by certain individual regarding the nature of God, de facto, actually destroy any power that the Gospel might have had.

I'd say that Jesus demonstrated Himself to us:

Acts 2:22
"Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."

You, however, seem to be saying that we can't actually do that which is asked of us - we can't actually exercise such belief.

 

[Cross Reference]

"Salvation begins with YOU seeing yourself for what you are NOT and CANNOT be without the love and grace and mercy and faith and repentance that comes only from God. It doesn't begin with your checklist of alleged qualifications for God being met according to your standards of your abysmal self-justified superiority to the Creator as the created."

"Salvation begins with YOU seeing" 'God for WHO He is'. By that is His His love revealed to you that you "might" love Him. This is why we have this: "We love him, because he first loved us". 1 John 4:19 (KJV).

Are we there yet?

 

[Sonnet]

Please explain the nouns in Romans 10:17 then, please. Are those nouns indeed verbs somehow?

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

The noun 'faith' comes through hearing but requires the action of faith:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Again:

John 10:38
But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

Those He describes as not His sheep are invited to have faith in Him and since we know Jesus was not disingenuous, then we know that the offer of salvation was and is a real one.

 

[intojoy]

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

The noun 'faith' comes through hearing but requires the action of faith:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Again:

John 10:38
But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

Those He describes as not His sheep are invited to have faith in Him and since we know Jesus was not disingenuous, then we know that the offer of salvation was and is a real one.

What about the fact that the Mayan civilization lived and died w/out the offer of the gospel?


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[Sonnet]

What about the fact that the Mayan civilization lived and died w/out the offer of the gospel?


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I'm not aware that that is the case.

Acts 7:51.

 

[intojoy]

I'm not aware that that is the case.

Acts 7:51.

It is


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[Sonnet]

It is


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What's your info on this then?

 

[TulipBee]

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

The noun 'faith' comes through hearing but requires the action of faith:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Again:

John 10:38
But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

Those He describes as not His sheep are invited to have faith in Him and since we know Jesus was not disingenuous, then we know that the offer of salvation was and is a real one.

How come you claim you didn't hear the message?

 

[Sonnet]

How come you claim you didn't hear the message?

I didn't claim that.

 

[Cross Reference]

What's your info on this then?

Intojoy's silience is deafening.

 

[TulipBee]

I didn't claim that.

You said you're not a believer in some of your post in plain view. Maybe someone can look it up for us

 

[Sonnet]

You said you're not a believer in some of your post in plain view. Maybe someone can look it up for us

This is what I denied:

How come you claim you didn't hear the message?

I've heard the Gospel message allright - the claim that Jesus died for my sins...but perhaps I'm thown into confusion by those that muddy the Gospel water because they refuse to say this is so unequivocally.

Perhaps it's not really good news.

 

[Cross Reference]

This is what I denied:


I've heard the Gospel message allright - the claim that Jesus died for my sins...but perhaps I'm thown into confusion by those that muddy the Gospel water because they refuse to say this is so unequivocally.

Perhaps it's not really good news.

I am quite sure you have pawn shops in the UK, hence, my question: Will you explain what it means to be redeemed?