Sonnet
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Eh? You said 'quit nagging'.
ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal
- Thread starter Nang
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Eh? You said 'quit nagging'.
But in context they go together.
He foreknew or pre planned and He predestined them to be conformed to the image... Predestined here is giving details about foreknowledge. I think.
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As much as I love people that hammer thang and company it isn't going to change their opinions. They are building with wood hay stubble and what they think is serving Yeshua will be burned at the bema seat.
Jesus will not return until Israel asks Him to return. Even tho I know you know this is an accurate statement, why is it that you haven't heard it said recently or ever?
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Calvinists must've gone to bed. 7pm Hawaiian time. I'm moving on. Here's a much more important thread
Messianic Christology
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.
http://theologyonline.com/showpost.php?p=3607136
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Messianic Christology
I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.
http://theologyonline.com/showpost.php?p=3607136
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Sonnet
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Ok.
It's not relevant to this thread I guess.
Would rather word it that Jesus will return when the Jewish leaders and followers say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord,' - being foreknow by God that this would occur.
Sonnet
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It is possible that God foreknew those that would believe and predetermined to bless them with such conforming - very much like Ephesians 1:3ff
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
The predetermining is focussed on the blessings for those in Christ - not on who those folk will be. If it it's the latter then honesty demands that Paul and the apostles preached such a Gospel - but they didn't.
That may sound biblical but it can not be such because if God looked down into the future from eternity past and decided to save me and you because he knew we would choose Him then He owed it to us based upon our taking the first step toward Him.
We who are the elect of God from before time began were members of those who were slaves to sin, slaves to Satan, already condemned and heading for hell. God decided that He would save some from out of the mass of humanity who were dead in sins. Others He simply passed over. Therefore my dear snonit, we magnify the grace of God all the more.
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Sonnet
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Not the first step: Acts 7:51, John 12:32
Such a view traduces God. Your view does not sit with John 3:14-15 - Jesus' words.
My favorite way to share the gospel! As Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness...
God cannot be traduced.
Infants died in the flood.
For the sake of argument, to call that unjust is to accuse the creator of iniquity. But this accusation is from the creature's perspective and based on human emotions.
The proper view for the elect is to glorify God because He did not need to save anyone but the fact that He has is the outworking of God's love, grace, and mercy.
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God cannot be traduced.
Infants died in the flood.
For the sake of argument, to call that unjust is to accuse the creator of iniquity. But this accusation is from the creature's perspective and based on human emotions.
The proper view for the elect is to glorify God because He did not need to save anyone but the fact that He has is the outworking of God's love, grace, and mercy.
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Sonnet
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Which is de facto disingenuous preaching if you hold that not all have access.
Noah was found to be righteous. He had faith.
Your view is that God's provision wasn't abundant. Scripture says something quite different.
I want no part with such a God, thanks.
That's understandable. I'm human too. But scripture is my final authority on all affairs concerning mankind not my conscience.
Again, children and infants died in the flood. Savages from the South Pacific isles lived and died and entered hell without ever once hearing of Adam and Eve or the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.
If you need help understanding these facts I'm here to serve buddy.
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Sonnet
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Your conscience is from God is it not? Romans 2:14ff
How do you know they went to hell and had never heard from God? Romans 2:14ff
Appreciated but I would say that your particular Gospel facilitates disbelief in Jesus from my perspective.
Cross Reference
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Based upon what did God plan them?? You aren't making sense.
Cross Reference
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1. Infants are innocent, blameless before God. Ergo, infants in the flood were received up to to God. So where is the injustice of God?
You conjecture on the adults. That isn't good reasoning.
2. Re addressing the people of the world outside the Godly persuasion from Noah, who were not reprobated by God, Jesus had this to say: ". . . other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
John 10:16 (KJV)
PneumaPsucheSoma
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Here's a compiled list of every usage in the NT of pas (all) as articular.
ALL (PAS) Articular in the NT
Matthew 8:34 (KJV) 34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.
Matthew 13:2 (KJV) 2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Mark 4:1 (KJV) 1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.
Mark 4:11 (KJV) 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 14:64 (KJV) 64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
Luke 1:10 (KJV) 10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.
Luke 6:19 (KJV) 19 And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.
Acts 1:14 (KJV) 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Acts 19:7 (KJV) 7 And all the men were about twelve.
Acts 27:37 (KJV) 37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.
Romans 8:32 (KJV) 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 Corinthians 9:22 (KJV) 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1 Corinthians 10:17 (KJV) 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
1 Corinthians 11:12 (KJV) 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
1 Corinthians 12:6 (KJV) 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1 Corinthians 12:19 (KJV) 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1 Corinthians 15:27 (KJV) 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1 Corinthians 15:28 (KJV) 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
2 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV) 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2 Corinthians 5:10 (KJV) 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:14 (KJV) 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV) 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Corinthians 5:18 (KJV) 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Corinthians 12:19 (KJV) 19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.
2 Corinthians 13:2 (KJV) 2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
Galatians 1:2 (KJV) 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Galatians 3:22 (KJV) 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 5:14 (KJV) 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Ephesians 1:10 (KJV) 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 1:11 (KJV) 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 4:10 (KJV) 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:13 (KJV) 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:15 (KJV) 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Ephesians 5:13 (KJV) 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Philippians 2:21 (KJV) 21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
Philippians 3:8 (KJV) 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Philippians 3:21 (KJV) 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Colossians 1:16 (KJV) 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:17 (KJV) 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:20 (KJV) 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 3:8 (KJV) 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Colossians 3:11 (KJV) 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
1 Timothy 1:16 (KJV) 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Timothy 6:13 (KJV) 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
Hebrews 1:3 (KJV) 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 2:8 (KJV) 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Hebrews 2:10 (KJV) 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 3:4 (KJV) 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
Revelation 4:11 (KJV) 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
In Greek, anarthrous substantives (nouns) are the "normal" form, whereas English has no equivalent; so nouns are always misunderstood to some degree automatically when translated into English.
When the article is added, there are layers of significance included and highlighted. Understanding Greek nouns contrasted to English nouns is, in itself, a lifetime endeavor. Not many are up for it, including those who study Greek as a scholastic pursuit.
Eagles Wings
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Your perspective is from un-belief in Christ, correct? There is only one Gospel and from your own words, you have rejected it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Sonnet
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PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
This last statement is most troubling. You expect God to want something to do with you and all humanity, when you want to sit in judgment of what you think His character and motives are?
In the end, after all your careful restraint and seemingly reasonable challenges for information and continuity, etc.; the end game is that you are the final judge of God based on not even knowing Him nor comprehending His attributes.
God IS love. And He demonstrated that love in that when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The very "synergy" you presume man to have was how God's original creation could NOT be corrupted beyond a certain point to remove the latent functionality that God designed within man as in His own image. What you "think" is synergy is from the origianl Monergistic creation, and that's a GOOD (functional) thing.
Instead of seeing man as unable to be dysfunctionalized from God's original creation, you insist man must have some inherent synergistic capability that is beyond the original creation AND the new creation. You, unbeknownst to yourself consciously, are presuming man to be greater than God.
Whatever the rest of the fallout is, I'm not convinced you're open and searching for truth; but instead just stoically keeping a binary-based false dichotomy in full stirred-up mode for your own sense of superiority at playing both ends against the middle.
The truth is that the timeless and non-spatial God created time and space. He's no-when and every-when (relative to creation), and He's no-where and every-where (relative to creation). He foreknew and predestined those (as a category of individuals, of which He also was aware of whom they would be according to that election) who would commune from time into timelessness with Him to be conformed to the image of His Son.
There is no "when" for God, so all references to time are Incarnational expressions for man's sake. There is no Ordo Salutis (Order of Salvation) in that context. There is no "pre-" or "post-" in that context. God pervades time.
There is no "eternity past". God alone is eternal. All else had a beginning, and either has an end or is everlasting. Eternal is not everlasting. And eternal is not durative endless time in arrears and forward. Eternal is timeless. The same context is applied to spatiality/non-spatiality.
You sitting in judgment of God because your entire corrupted dysfucntional mind cannot conceive of these things and self-determining whether God is worthy of your "faith" is the height of sin as the pride of life. You presume to establish a gauntlet for God to run in order to be worthy of your faith or love, or whatever.
Salvation begins with YOU seeing yourself for what you are NOT and CANNOT be without the love and grace and mercy and faith and repentance that comes only from God. It doesn't begin with your checklist of alleged qualifications for God being met according to your standards of your abysmal self-justified superiority to the Creator as the created.
There is enough latent functionality left from the original Monergistic creation for all men to do that, but it's not Synergism when that happens. It's the preeminence of a God so good and loving and powerful that even the lapse of the cosmos cannot dysfunctionalize mankind beyond God's reach.
Man's reprobation is his own. The will can only choose according to an unrenewed mind. Yet while the breath of life remains in any human, there can salvation for any of the all that Christ died for.
You want an unconditional God according to your own conditions. And you're just taunting others on both sides of a binary-based false dichotomy.
Choose you this day whom you will serve. If you choose or repent or hear or believe, it will be Monergism because God is the uncaused cause.
We are not quantitavitely a new creation after salvation, but qualitatively new. The entire binary is based upon quantifying that which can only be qualitative. And English speakers have no grid for qualitative distinctions, because English doesn't have anarthrous noun constructs.
You're beating the air. But you can stop.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
By an epistemological internal (dys)functionality that is not upon (epi) that which would underlie (hypo) it.
Won't happen. You cannot self-author and self-determine and self-believe.
You are the poster child for Monergism, but you don't even realize it.
The thing believed (faith) must come out of the thing heard (hearing, the noun), which is by means of the Rhema of God.
If you'd get out of the way, God's Word could save you. Your own logos from an unrenewed mind is what isn't God's Logos.
Eagles Wings
New member
[MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION]:
If you don't mind, I'll be praying, Deo Volente, for your coming to know Christ, as Lord and Savior.
EW
If you don't mind, I'll be praying, Deo Volente, for your coming to know Christ, as Lord and Savior.
EW
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