ECT Grace: God isn't mad at sin, or just isn't doing anything about it at the moment?

[Tambora]

Rational persons here will agree that God is not, at present, opening the ground beneath recalcitrant blasphemers. Hasn't for a very long time. Today, he is not acting in judgment against anyone outside of Christ no matter how wicked they are. If He were, overpopulation would not be an issue.

So do the sins of unbelievers, in a sense, even exist under grace? True, God is not actively counting their sins against them -- meaning He is not now ACTING upon them in judgment.

But does this mean, as many say, that the ONLY sin one can be condemned for today is rejecting Christ?

If God's having reconciled the world to Himself means that ALL sins were covered at the Cross, and (for example) a despicable lover of child rape dies while loving child rape (happens all the time, I expect), the only reason God will condemn him is because he refused to believe the Gospel, not because of his abominable love of child rape. At least that's the logic of those who say the ONLY sin that will send a soul to Hell today is rejecting Christ, as far as I can understand it.

Or...did God's reconciling the world only POTENTIALLY expunge the sins of each and all, contingent upon faith (their believing the Gospel)?

I want to know what others here think about that.

I bolded the portion I will address.

If I am reading you right, then I am one that sees it that way.
One of my main reasons is ..... babies.

As Paul tells us, there was a time he was alive, and then the command/law came and it slew him. (Rom 7:9)
So how was he 'alive' until the law slew him?

 

[musterion]

He had no awareness of his sin because he had no awareness of Law, is how I take it.

 

[Nihilo]

Hi and you have no idea because you are NOT following Paul as per 1 Cor 11:1 !!


And the Greek word CORRUPTS or DEFILE or MAR / is PHINEIRO is a verb in the PRESENT TENSE which places the action of the verb during the dispensation of the Grace of God , period !!

The next verb is DESTROY / PTHEIRO , is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE and this action is happening during the BEMA SEAT !!

The 2 next verbs are IS / ESTI and ARE / ESTE and are in the PRESENT TENSE and the ARE means we are ALWAYS holy and in God !!

Very simple for a dispensationalist , so what are you ??

dan p

I am Catholic in theology, but not in body (I am not in full communion with the Catholic Church).

Thank you Dan, for helping to clarify the Church's teaching on purgatory for me. :e4e:

 

[Tambora]

He had no awareness of his sin because he had no awareness of Law, is how I take it.

Paul was first alive before that awareness came.
It was not until after the awareness came that Paul died.

So, was he born dead or alive?
Or another way to ask .....
If he was born dead, then what did he do that made him alive before the awareness came to make him dead again?

 

[musterion]

Experientally alive, judicially dead. Free as a bird with no awareness of the guilt of the judicial death sentence, until a knowledge of broken Law came.

 

[Danoh]

Experientally alive, judicially dead. Free as a bird with no awareness of the guilt of the judicial death sentence, until a knowledge of broken Law came.

Yep.

And in a sense, likewise is an aspect of the sense of Romans 5:8.

"We were yet sinners" some two thousand years ago - even that far back...way before we were even born...as a result of, and all the way back to, and "in Adam."

In fact, Evangelize enough, and sooner or later you will find these walking dead, who do not know they are, because they have basically led secular-ly decent lives.

But dead in trespasses and sins, to one extent or another, they too, nevertheless are.

Rom. 5:8.

 

[Tambora]

Experientally alive, judicially dead. Free as a bird with no awareness of the guilt of the judicial death sentence, until a knowledge of broken Law came.

So how can a baby be saved?

 

[glorydaz]

I bolded the portion I will address.

If I am reading you right, then I am one that sees it that way.
One of my main reasons is ..... babies.

As Paul tells us, there was a time he was alive, and then the command/law came and it slew him. (Rom 7:9)
So how was he 'alive' until the law slew him?

I think Paul was "alive" going happily along in this world until the law "came" .....speaking of conviction realizing "thou shalt not covet" means the very thoughts and intents of the heart, rather than just what we do. That condemnation that comes when we see ourselves as God sees us....sinners.

It's the same with when the conscience kicks in...when we decide to choose the evil over the good. That's the guilt that "slays us"

 

[glorydaz]

So how can a baby be saved?

By Grace.

 

[Tambora]

I think Paul was "alive" going happily along in this world until the law "came" .....speaking of conviction realizing "thou shalt not covet" means the very thoughts and intents of the heart, rather than just what we do. That condemnation that comes when we see ourselves as God sees us....sinners.

It's the same with when the conscience kicks in...when we decide to choose the evil over the good. That's the guilt that "slays us"

I can see that.

But still, he was alive before that happened.
How did he become alive before that happened if he was born dead?

 

[Tambora]

By Grace.

No doubt!

But a little baby does not yet know about the law and sin that would condemned him.
Until he does, is he alive or dead?

 

[glorydaz]

I can see that.

But still, he was alive before that happened.
How did he become alive before that happened if he was born dead?

Exactly.....no one is born dead.

 

[glorydaz]

No doubt!

But a little baby does not yet know about the law and sin that would condemned him.
Until he does, is he alive or dead?

He isn't dead. Even those who are "dead" are only condemned to die....they sit in a prison cell awaiting the carrying out of the sentence. Dead men walking is the phrase for those in the death chamber.

I don't buy that anyone is so dead they cannot hear the prison door being opened.

 

[DAN P]

I am Catholic in theology, but not in body (I am not in full communion with the Catholic Church).

Thank you Dan, for helping to clarify the Church's teaching on purgatory for me. :e4e:

Hi and buy a Greek book and you can check all the Greek words that are in the bible !!

dan p

 

[musterion]

So how can a baby be saved?

When the baby is old enough to be aware of his/her sin (I've told the story of mine around age 5) and hear/believe the saving Gospel.

I believe there's something to the so-called 'age of responsibility." Nineveh's wickedness stunk to high heaven but God pointed out to Johan the ones there who did not know what was what...were those children? Possibly. God was ready to wipe them off the map but took more pity on them than Johan did. Like you said, Paul said it was when awareness of the Law being broken came that he was as good as dead, as far as awareness of sin.

 

[glorydaz]

When the baby is old enough to be aware of his/her sin (I've told the story of mine around age 5) and hear/believe the saving Gospel.

I believe there's something to the so-called 'age of responsibility." Nineveh's wickedness stunk to high heaven but God pointed out to Johan the ones there who did not know what was what...were those children? Possibly. God was ready to wipe them off the map but took more pity on them than Johan did. Like you said, Paul said it was when awareness of the Law being broken came that he was as good as dead, as far as awareness of sin.

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Tambora]

I'm not sure you are getting my point.

So how can a baby be saved?

When the baby is old enough to be aware of his/her sin

Is there salvation available for a baby before he reaches that point?

If no, then all babies are condemned.
If yes, then it was not due to the baby knowing and accepting he's a sinner in need of the Savior.

 

[Tambora]

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

I think of that verse every time I play this song.
It is a whimsical adaptation of Pachabel's Canon in D.
Get's peppier as it goes.

Close your eyes and image all the spirits of all the little children gathering around you to hear the music.
They start skipping and dancing all through the house, filling the home with laughter and joy.
And when the song ends, they are exhausted with happiness and gather around you with open arms and smiles and give you the biggest hug you've ever had in your life.

 

[glorydaz]

I think of that verse every time I play this song.
It is a whimsical adaptation of Pachabel's Canon in D.
Get's peppier as it goes.

Close your eyes and image all the spirits of all the little children gathering around you to hear the music.
They start skipping and dancing all through the house, filling the home with laughter and joy.
And when the song ends, they are exhausted with happiness and gather around you with open arms and smiles and give you the biggest hug you've ever had in your life.

Beautiful, Tam. What a wonderful picture that is.

The innocence of a child is beyond any other on this earth. I see it every day in the face of my own grandchildren, and I thank the Lord they are HIS from the moment of their conception.

 

[glorydaz]

When the baby is old enough to be aware of his/her sin (I've told the story of mine around age 5) and hear/believe the saving Gospel.

I believe there's something to the so-called 'age of responsibility." Nineveh's wickedness stunk to high heaven but God pointed out to Johan the ones there who did not know what was what...were those children? Possibly. God was ready to wipe them off the map but took more pity on them than Johan did. Like you said, Paul said it was when awareness of the Law being broken came that he was as good as dead, as far as awareness of sin.

Brings this verse to mind.

John 9:41
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.