ECT Grace: God isn't mad at sin, or just isn't doing anything about it at the moment?

[glorydaz]

Very few in Scripture are depicted as having been personally messed with by the Adversary Himself.

It is...a Dispensational issue *.

Duh-uh

Because...Rom. 5:8

______________

* Which is merely a matter of asking oneself, at some point - "okay, that out of the way; having sorted this or that out, now where doctrinally; is this, Dispensationally...?"

Answer: Time Past...Ages to Come...not...in the But Now.

I prefer to take all the Bible at face value. The point of this thread is, I believe, wider than what you would like it to be.

Satan is the God of this world. In this world we shall have tribulations.

Ephesians 6:10-12
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

 

[Danoh]

I prefer to take all the Bible at face value. The point of this thread is, I believe, wider than what you would like it to be.

Satan is the God of this world. In this world we shall have tribulations.

Ephesians 6:10-12
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.​

The sister passages to that one point to a day not only yet future, but against the entire Body all at once.

Guess when that "evil day" will be?

While what the other part of that passage there in Ephesians 6 was talking about was then an openly Satanic opposition to the Mystery the revelation of which had THEN STILL been unfolding.

An opposition that had its own measure of signs and wonders encountered by Paul throughout.

His point to the saints back then, being the training they could choose to take it's then present supenatural opposition and its persecution as a training, towards that evil day still yet future that the Body - at it's departure at the end of this Mystery Age - will face.

In contrast, today, a passage like that functions much like those OT that now merely teach about how things were but that can still serve as a training and a comfort.

It is what it is; I doubt your learning curve is over - you just might see this some other day.

Rom. 5:8 towards ya.

 

[glorydaz]

The sister passages to that one point to a day not only yet future, but against the entire Body all at once.

Guess when that "evil day" will be?

While what the other part of that passage there in Ephesians 6 was talking about was then an openly Satanic opposition to the Mystery the revelation of which had THEN STILL been unfolding.

An opposition that had its own measure of signs and wonders encountered by Paul throughout.

His point to the saints back then, being the training they could choose to take it's then present supenatural opposition and its persecution as a training, towards that evil day still yet future that the Body - at it's departure at the end of this Mystery Age - will face.

In contrast, today, a passage like that functions much like those OT that now merely teach about how things were but that can still serve as a training and a comfort.

It is what it is; I doubt your learning curve is over - you just might see this some other day.

Rom. 5:8 towards ya.

I don't think you're addressing the point of this thread. Therefore, it looks suspiciously like a rabbit trail to me.

I realize you're trying mightily to lead me off, but I'm not in the mood to follow.

 

[Danoh]

I don't think you're addressing the point of this thread. Therefore, it looks suspiciously like a rabbit trail to me.

I realize you're trying mightily to lead me off, but I'm not in the mood to follow.

No. I am addressing what you responded to my post to yours with - that the right understanding of these things is a Dispensational issue.

It is you who are right off reading some "up to no good...demon behind every bush" foolishness into it.

You're still very "Charismatic" in that sort of a thing - even back when you were fine with me, this "Charismatic" lens of yours would arise to take issue, any time I'd mention the supernatural no longer works that way - until after this Mystery Age is over...2 These. 2.

Once more, your misperception...is the problem.

Stay stuck in your superstitions then - until you are fully persuaded otherwise.

Your loss, until then.

Rom. 5:8.

 

[Danoh]

Opinions differ on the scope of God's dealing with sin by the Cross, as far as how He views the lost and their sin today. Some say that, having reconciled all to Himself, God is not angry at all with anyone and wants people to believe that and be saved. Others agree with the above but add that His wrath is currently suspended by His grace, but the wrath is still there against all who love sin and reject Christ. Those are the two main positions I'm familiar with; there may be others.

What is your view?

Romans 5:8.

Which is...

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Thus, what is far too often perceived by far too many (supposedly) within the faith as God's hand is nothing more than...

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

And just what "way" is that?

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

What "way" is that?

His Word, when rightly divided on ANY issue.

 

[jamie]

Job is a parable.

"Moreover Job continued his parable, and said..." (Job 27:1 KJV)

"Moreover Job continued his parable, and said..." (Job 29:1 KJV)

I realize the author only said twice it is a parable, but maybe that's not enough.

 

[glorydaz]

No. I am addressing what you responded to my post to yours with - that the right understanding of these things is a Dispensational issue.

It is you who are right off reading some "up to no good...demon behind every bush" foolishness into it.

You're still very "Charismatic" in that sort of a thing - even back when you were fine with me, this "Charismatic" lens of yours would arise to take issue, any time I'd mention the supernatural no longer works that way - until after this Mystery Age is over...2 These. 2.

Once more, your misperception...is the problem.

Stay stuck in your superstitions then - until you are fully persuaded otherwise.

Your loss, until then.

Rom. 5:8.

He's gone totally off the deep end. :kookoo:


If you continue to stalk me, and slander everything I say, I'll be forced to respond.

 

[glorydaz]

Job is a parable.

"Moreover Job continued his parable, and said..." (Job 27:1 KJV)

"Moreover Job continued his parable, and said..." (Job 29:1 KJV)

I realize the author only said twice it is a parable, but maybe that's not enough.

That Job answers the questions of his friends with a "parable" doesn't make the book a parable.

 

[Danoh]

He's gone totally off the deep end. :kookoo:


If you continue to stalk me, and slander everything I say, I'll be forced to respond.

That is not what I was doing - anymore than it is what I believe you are doing, whenever you respond to a post I originated.

Have it your way, then, willfully clueless one.

Romans 5:8.

:doh:

 

[glorydaz]

That is not what I was doing - anymore than it is what I believe you are doing, whenever you respond to a post I originated.

Have it your way, then, willfully clueless one.

Romans 5:8.

:doh:

YOU responded to my post.....not the other way around. :kookoo:

 

[Danoh]

YOU responded to my post.....not the other way around. :kookoo:

Am more than well aware I responded to your post first, and noted this very fact.

But you read into a thing...once more.

Tell ya what; I think I'll leave ya there - as that appears to be the bliss you are happiest with. :chuckle:

Good day to ya - Romans 5:8, my nevertheless...sister in the Lord

 

[glorydaz]

Tell ya what; I think I'll leave ya there -

Good plan.

 

[musterion]

This is why I can't have nice threads. That, and the fact that I shop at Salvation Army.

 

[oatmeal]

Opinions differ on the scope of God's dealing with sin by the Cross, as far as how He views the lost and their sin today. Some say that, having reconciled all to Himself, God is not angry at all with anyone and wants people to believe that and be saved. Others agree with the above but add that His wrath is currently suspended by His grace, but the wrath is still there against all who love sin and reject Christ. Those are the two main positions I'm familiar with; there may be others.

What is your view?

Grace is defined as God's unmerited divine favor. Those that God directs grace to can receive that grace or not receive it. Ie, some do Romans 10:9 and receive the gift of salvation. Some do not.

Grace differs from mercy. Mercy has been defined as God's withholding of merited judgement.

Grace is not a license to sin, it is God's divine favor to someone.

Mercy is not a license to sin.

Note that God is light, God is love, but where does it say that God is mercy?

Scripture does teach that God is rich in mercy, but not all get that mercy, where is the justice and judgement of God, ie, judgement day, if God is infinitely merciful to all all the time?

God does not favor sin, he is not neutral to sin, he is against sin,

but God knows we have sinned, do err and will err.

I John 1:9

 

[musterion]

Grace is defined as God's unmerited divine favor. Those that God directs grace to can receive that grace or not receive it. Ie, some do Romans 10:9 and receive the gift of salvation. Some do not.

Grace differs from mercy. Mercy has been defined as God's withholding of merited judgement.

Grace is not a license to sin, it is God's divine favor to someone.

Mercy is not a license to sin.

Note that God is light, God is love, but where does it say that God is mercy?

Scripture does teach that God is rich in mercy, but not all get that mercy, where is the justice and judgement of God, ie, judgement day, if God is infinitely merciful to all all the time?

God does not favor sin, he is not neutral to sin, he is against sin,

but God knows we have sinned, do err and will err.

I John 1:9

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but the issue is how this works today, not at the Judgment.

 

[oatmeal]

Perhaps I wasn't clear, but the issue is how this works today, not at the Judgment.

Well although I wrote of judgement the rest speaks of today

Grace is grace, it is not mercy

Mercy is mercy, it is not grace

Sin is not counted against us because of God's mercy.

Where does God's mercy the result of?

God's grace

 

[musterion]

Rational persons here will agree that God is not, at present, opening the ground beneath recalcitrant blasphemers. Hasn't for a very long time. Today, he is not acting in judgment against anyone outside of Christ no matter how wicked they are. If He were, overpopulation would not be an issue.

So do the sins of unbelievers, in a sense, even exist under grace? True, God is not actively counting their sins against them -- meaning He is not now ACTING upon them in judgment.

But does this mean, as many say, that the ONLY sin one can be condemned for today is rejecting Christ?

If God's having reconciled the world to Himself means that ALL sins were covered at the Cross, and (for example) a despicable lover of child rape dies while loving child rape (happens all the time, I expect), the only reason God will condemn him is because he refused to believe the Gospel, not because of his abominable love of child rape. At least that's the logic of those who say the ONLY sin that will send a soul to Hell today is rejecting Christ, as far as I can understand it.

Or...did God's reconciling the world only POTENTIALLY expunge the sins of each and all, contingent upon faith (their believing the Gospel)?

I want to know what others here think about that.

 

[musterion]

Or this guy for what he says about Christ (worst language you'll hear today)...

http://theliberator.news/2017/homosexual-coffee-shop-owner-evicts-peaceful-christians/

 

[Danoh]

Rational persons here will agree that God is not, at present, opening the ground beneath recalcitrant blasphemers. Hasn't for a very long time. Today, he is not acting in judgment against anyone outside of Christ no matter how wicked they are. If He were, overpopulation would not be an issue.

So do the sins of unbelievers, in a sense, even exist under grace? True, God is not actively counting their sins against them -- meaning He is not now ACTING upon them in judgment.

But does this mean, as many say, that the ONLY sin one can be condemned for today is rejecting Christ?

If God's having reconciled the world to Himself means that ALL sins were covered at the Cross, and (for example) a despicable lover of child rape dies while loving child rape (happens all the time, I expect), the only reason God will condemn him is because he refused to believe the Gospel, not because of his abominable love of child rape. At least that's the logic of those who say the ONLY sin that will send a soul to Hell today is rejecting Christ, as far as I can understand it.

Or...did God's reconciling the world only POTENTIALLY expunge the sins of each and all, contingent upon faith (their believing the Gospel)?

I want to know what others here think about that.

Another thought on all this...

If memory serves me, you and I both hold that man is born in Adam's transgression.

That man is born...a sinner.

And that the Cross is God's remedy.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Etc....

Meaning that although rejecting said remedy is just one more of man's sins as one who is born a sinner to begin with, it is not the fact that he wilfully commits the sin of rejecting the Cross that is unforgivable, but that his willful rejection of said remedy leaves him in the sinful state that remedy is meant to eliviate, irradicate, or solve for.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Anyway, my two cents on some of that.

Romans 5:8.

 

[musterion]

it is not the fact that he wilfully commits the sin of rejecting the Cross that is unforgivable, but that his willful rejection of said remedy leaves him in the sinful state that remedy is meant to eliviate, irradicate, or solve for.

Would that not mean all are always standing under judgment unless and until the remedy - the Cross - is accepted? And that grace is only the withholding of God's justified indignation and wrath, not the negation of His indignation and wrath?

In other words, would that not mean that rejecting the saving Gospel is not the only sin that will send someone to Hell...only the ultimate one?