ECT God Made Mankind Upright and That Contradicts the Theory of Original Sin

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
I argued that if the theory of Original Sin is true then God makes people with a sin nature and they emerge from the womb "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" then the LORD is responsible for the evil that they do.


No, Jer., that is your satanic humanism-your MO on TOL.Already addressed:

1.Adam was born upright-free will....he chose to disobey-we would have done the same thing-the dispensational approach.....Man is tried in dispensations, fails....The big picture. But that meat you cannot bear, kid. Stick with the milk.


Jer: You're not fair, God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. An atheist to Jer. Pate, Jr.:The LORD makes all people and according to your theory all people, if they do not choose God, they will be consigned to an eternal torment. Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell. Your "god" is a sadist.Why did your "god" make people, if he knew man would fall, endure wickedness on earth, and most go to hell-He is responsible for this!!!!!!!!!!!

Jer: Uh, urr,....

Jer: The humanist.


You actually believe this "God is unfair, a sadist, responsible for man's fall, we have to teach children to sin....." theory?

An atheist to Jer Pate, Jr.:If there is a God, I would never worship a God that does what your God-sends people to an eternity in hell, because my God would not have darkness at all .

Jer: Well, uh, urr...

See how that works, humanist?


Humanist Jer Pate, Jr. It's not fair that we are children of fallen Adam, as he is not our representative!!! He did it!!!! God would never do that!!!!!!!!!!!!


Stuff it, humanist.If you, and all you other Catholics, object in principle to the LORD God's permitting, allowing one person to act for another, that would be the end of the Christian faith, as our entire redemption rests on the same principle, that through the actions of one man-the Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we are redeemed to an even "higher status" than Adam had.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
In order to obtain eternal life by keeping God's commandments a person has to keep it perfectly. So no one obtains it that way.

However, a person has the ability to keep it perfectly but not the will.

Jer Pate, Jr.: Tell us the reason for the Lord Jesus Christ being born of the Holy Spirit, instead of having the sperm of a man impregnating Mary. Unpack it for us. And tell us the difference between Him having no "original sin," from the womb, and a baby from the womb, having no "original sin."

And, again, as I've asked you numerous times, tell us who taught your children to sin, and why you assert that an apple tree becomes an apple tree, only after it produces apples.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
I argued that if the theory of Original Sin is true then God makes people with a sin nature and they emerge from the womb "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" then the LORD is responsible for the evil that they do.

Tell us, Catholic, the difference between the Lord Jesus Christ having no "original sin," from the womb, and a baby from the womb, having no "original sin."
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I asked him that over 10 times, and who taught his children how to misbehave...

They misbehave because they are unhappy, not because they are totally inclined to all evil, as the theory of Oroiginal Sin teaches. After all, the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom belongs to little children.

Of course you would rather believe a dumb theory instead of the Lord Jesus.

Tell us, Catholic, the difference between the Lord Jesus Christ having no "original sin," from the womb, and a baby from the womb, having no "original sin."

The Scriptures state that the Lord Jesus was made like us in every way.

Since He emerged from the womb spiritually alive then that means people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
According to the theory of Original Sin He did. I say that people corrupt themselves. They do not come out of the womb with a totally corrupt body and soul.

If that were the case, then whence the question "Who can know it?" If the deceitfulness of the heart goes beyond the conscious, willful man then that question makes sense. If it is man just willfully making himself that way then the answer is simple - man knows how deceitful he is for he is the author of it.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
They misbehave because they are unhappy, not because they are totally inclined to all evil, as the theory of Oroiginal Sin teaches. After all, the Lord Jesus said that the kingdom belongs to little children.

Misbehave? Lusting, coveting, hating, envy - all these things are in the heart long before they are on the lips or in view of others. This is a product of unhappiness? So evil is born of unhappiness? Our goal, then, would be to make our children as happy as possible. The Kingdom belongs to such as little children. Not because children are sinless, but because they are trusting (and other childlike attributes). That doesn't make them good in the moral sense. There is none good but God.

The Scriptures state that the Lord Jesus was made like us in every way.

Since He emerged from the womb spiritually alive then that means people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

I know it says He was tempted in every way as we (yet without sin). But who was His father? Who is our father in a similar fashion? As in Adam all die...
 

john w

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Hall of Fame
They misbehave because they are unhappy,.

Catch that laughable theory, TOL? Because they are "unhappy!" Why are they unhappy, Jer? They are self centered, selfish, cranky, misbehave, disobedience, greedy, because they are "unhappy." Clown, as that is psycho babble slop, and all of TOL knows it. No, those "apples" are a result of their inner being, you clown,"as the root, so the fruit," and you give us this slop, that they are just "unhappy," with no plausible reason as to why they are "unhappy."

You just made that up, humanist Catholic.

Why should they be unhappy, Jer, if they have no sin in them? What causes them to be unhappy?

Tell us, Catholic, the difference between the Lord Jesus Christ having no "original sin," from the womb, and a baby from the womb, having no "original sin."

The Scriptures state that the Lord Jesus was made like us in every way.Since He emerged from the womb spiritually alive then that means people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

Non responsive. Evasion. I asked:

Tell us, Catholic, the difference between the Lord Jesus Christ having no "original sin," from the womb, and a baby from the womb, having no "original sin."

Go on record, and assert that He/babies are "identical," in their "no sin nature,"with the Lord Jesus Christ. Go ahead.
 
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john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Misbehave? Lusting, coveting, hating, envy - all these things are in the heart long before they are on the lips or in view of others. This is a product of unhappiness? So evil is born of unhappiness? Our goal, then, would be to make our children as happy as possible. The Kingdom belongs to such as little children. Not because children are sinless, but because they are trusting (and other childlike attributes). That doesn't make them good in the moral sense. There is none good but God.



I know it says He was tempted in every way as we (yet without sin). But who was His father? Who is our father in a similar fashion? As in Adam all die...

"unhappy"-Jer.


What a clown-he just winged it, with this Oprah/Dr. Phil psycho babble.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
If that were the case, then whence the question "Who can know it?" If the deceitfulness of the heart goes beyond the conscious, willful man then that question makes sense. If it is man just willfully making himself that way then the answer is simple - man knows how deceitful he is for he is the author of it.

And what the h is " I say that people corrupt themselves."

Huh? "Happy hour" early, Jer.?


Yes, you are correct, when you say "I say"-the scripture testifies, that we are corrupt, because we inherit daddy Adam's genes.We don't just make up our mind to sin, or make a "mistake," like Koby Bryant pleaded, and go from being perfect, to being sinful. Ephesians 2:3 KJV “...and were by nature the children of wrath.”
 
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jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
In order to obtain eternal life by keeping God's commandments a person has to keep it perfectly. So no one obtains it that way.

However, a person has the ability to keep it perfectly but not the will.

"For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God nor indeed can be." (Romans 8:6-7)

Do you believe any of Paul's teachings?

The carnal mind is the natural mind of a person without God's Spirit.

Jesus kept the laws he was subject to by the power of God's Spirit.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
So what are you saying?

That even when Christians put on new bodies and are in heaven they will have no free will?

So here's the other part of my trying to wrap my head around what you are proposing. You claim there is no physical affect of the fall and no physical transmittal of some nature (I do agree that sin is not some genetic defect, so I can sympathize here), but now you are saying some physical change WILL result in a state of sinlessness. There's a disconnect here that I'm having trouble with. How can a physical change "cure" something that wasn't physical to begin with?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
If that were the case, then whence the question "Who can know it?"

As I said, people do not come out of the womb corrupt both in the soul and the body, as the theory of Original Sin teaches. Instead, people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

The word "corrupt" means going from a state which is "good" to one which is not good. It is impossible to corrupt something that is already corrupt. But if we are to believe the false theory of Original Sin we must believe that all people are totally corrupt when they emerge from the womb and then they somehow corrupt themselves.

David didn't think his body was corrupt in anyway:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

The LORD made mankind upright, not just physically but also morally.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
As I said, people do not come out of the womb corrupt both in the soul and the body, as the theory of Original Sin teaches. Instead, people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

There is a difference between making a broad statement about mankind universally and a specific situation in which men have done something. Moses had gone up the mountain to receive the commandments and the Israelites engaged (by their own inclinations) in gross immorality and idolatry. It's not that it wasn't already in their hearts, but it was that what was already there was expressing itself. Remember, God told Israel this :

And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Deuteronomy 8:2

It was an outward expression of what was already there - not a new state of being. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

The word "corrupt" means going from a state which is "good" to one which is not good. It is impossible to corrupt something that is already corrupt. But if we are to believe the false theory of Original Sin we must believe that all people are totally corrupt when they emerge from the womb and then they somehow corrupt themselves.

David didn't think his body was corrupt in anyway:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

The LORD made mankind upright, not just physically but also morally.

David also said this in the midst of his confession of sin :

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 51:5

He's talking about something that is there from birth - not something that came up out of nowhere.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Misbehave? Lusting, coveting, hating, envy - all these things are in the heart long before they are on the lips or in view of others. This is a product of unhappiness? So evil is born of unhappiness? Our goal, then, would be to make our children as happy as possible.

Let us look at the following verse which speaks of lust:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death"
(Jas. 1:14-15).​

In the book Fallen:A Theology of Sin (a book which defends the theory of Original Sin) David B. Calhoun writes the following commentary about this passage:

"Temptation leads to sin, and, for the unrepentant, sin leads to spiritual death. 'Each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it is conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death' (James 1:14-15). James describes the deadly progression from evil desire, to being dragged away, to enticement, to conception, to birth and then finally to death. This sixfold progression proceeds from the mind, to the affections, to the will, to outward action, and to spiritual death"
(David B. Calhoun, "Sin and Temptation" in Fallen: A Theology of Sin, 264).​

Calhoun is right when he says that a person's personal sins result in spiritual death. And since all people sin and die spiritually then all people were spiritually alive. After all, no one can die spiritually unless he is first alive spiritually. So at one time or another all people have been alive spiritually. And the only way that is possible is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

The Kingdom belongs to such as little children. Not because children are sinless, but because they are trusting (and other childlike attributes).

As the Lord said, the kingdom belongs to little children. And that is because they remain spiritually alive. Sin will not be imputed to anyone until they know the difference between what is good and what is not.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
There is a difference between making a broad statement about mankind universally and a specific situation in which men have done something.

I quoted the following verse in my initial post that began this thread:

"Adding one thing to another to discover the scheme of things--while I was still searching but not finding--I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes'"
(Eccl.7:27-29).

All people are created upright but sooner or later all people corrupt themselves.

David also said this in the midst of his confession of sin :

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 51:5

He's talking about something that is there from birth - not something that came up out of nowhere.

Then you believe that David was in error when He said that he was wonderfully made? I will address Psalm 51:5 but in return perhaps you will address what Paul said at Psalm 139:13-14.

First of all, at Psalm 51:5 David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Psalm 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice"
(Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Already did, baldie, on another thread...

That's not true and you know it. You have never addressed the verses which I quoted in my initial post on this thread.

Frankly, sonny boy, this is all way over your meager understanding so maybe a grown up will actually address what I said here:

In order to examine the results of personal sins in regard to death let us look first at the following verse :

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" (Eph.2:1).​

Joseph Benson wrote that "they are under condemnation, on account of their past depravity and various transgressions, to the second death, or to future wrath and punishment, like criminals under sentence of death for their crimes" [emphasis added] (Joseph Benson, Benson Commentary on the Old and New Testaments, Commentary at Ephesians 2:1).

In The Pulpit Commentary we read that "the death ascribed to the Ephesians in their natural state is evidently spiritual death, and "trespasses and sins," being in the dative seems to indicate the cause of death - 'dead through your trespasses and your sins' (R.V.)" (The Pulpit Commentary)

Paul also tells the believers at Colosse the following:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses"
(Col.2:13).​

In Vincent's Word Studies we read the following: "In your sins...the dative is instrumental, through or by" (Marvin R. Vincent, Vincent's Word Studies)

At Colossians 2:13 we read that Paul tells these people that they were dead previously but now have been made "alive with Christ." This can only be speaking of them receiving spiritual life so their death was a spiritual death. So these people died spiritually as a result of their own sin. That means that they were alive spiritually before they sinned because no one can die spiritually unless he is first alive spiritually. And the only possible way that these people were alive spiritually before they sinned is because they emerged from the womb spiritually alive.

That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead and that completely destroys the theory of Original Sin which teaches that all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead. Thomas R. Schreiner is clearly in error when he says that "all people sin individually because they enter the world spiritually dead on the basis of their union with Adam" (Thomas R. Schreiner, Adam, the Fall, and Original Sin", 273-74).

These verses by themselves disprove the theory of Original Sin and no one has yet been able to prove anything which I said is in error.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
That's not true and you know it. You have never addressed the verses which I quoted in my initial post on this thread.

Yes, it is. Why do you deny, old, wimpy looking "man," that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God, not a man today, and not our mediator, in "flesh and bones," per Luke 24:39 KJV, Ephesians 5:30 KJV, deny that He was the only sinless person, ever to walk the earth, as you assert that children,and "the virgin Mary," are sinless, identical to the Saviour, and that the "virgin birth/conception," Him being conceived by the Holy Spirit, was/is unnecessary, superfluous, as all children are born sinless, through males, and assert that that "the rapture" is the same thing as the second coming, and was prophesied, in Matthew-John, and in Hebrews-Revelation, as it was not part of the mystery, revealed exclusively to Paul, as you argue, that he was just a flunkie, as there is no difference between prophecy, and mystery, as "it all says the same thing," according to your Acts 2 blender interpretive methodology, as the 12 could have done what Paul did,and why do you assert that men/women, today, are not born in the likeness, after the image of fallen Adam, per Genesis 5:3 KJV, but are born sinless, identical to the Saviour, and why do you butcher/pervert Ecclesiastes 7:29 KJV, that, w/o a doubt whatsoever, when referring to "upright," refers to the LORD God's "pre-fall" creation of Adam/Eve, not us, who are after Adam "post fall" per Genesis 5:3 KJV, which you assert is translated wrong, and why do you assert that Job was a child, when he was discussed in the book of Job, as he was "upright," per your Ecclesiastes 7:29 KJV "verse in isolation" scam, per Job 1:1 KJV, Job 1:8 KJV, Job 2:3 KJV, and why do you deny that you are an Acts 2 Walvoordite/Ironsideite Acts 2 proponent, posing as a mid Acts dispensationalist, and why do you deny that you are a man worshiper, witness your avatar, and spamming what "sir" Robert Anderson, Paul Sadler of the Berean Bible Society,.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................says, on 1/3 posts, unable to "connect the dots" on your own, missing the "big picture," as you are still in the milk of Acts 2, in childhood, and why do you deny that you are scamming others, with your "post one verse in isolation" deception, ignoring surrounding verses, and ignoring who is being addressed, as you assert that "it all says the same thing?"?


We see that you have no answers, Acts 2 blender, sower of discord amongst the brethren, whose "shtic" on TOL, is misquoting members, misrepresenting others' views, explaining why you've been banned from numerous Christian forums, including www.christianforums.com.


We see that the admitted bible corrector, is running and hiding.



Frankly, sonny boy, this is all way over your meager understanding so maybe a grown up will actually address what I said here:

In order to examine the results of personal sins in regard to death let us look first at the following verse :

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" (Eph.2:1).​

Joseph Benson wrote that "they are under condemnation, on account of their past depravity and various transgressions, to the second death, or to future wrath and punishment, like criminals under sentence of death for their crimes" [emphasis added] (Joseph Benson, Benson Commentary on the Old and New Testaments, Commentary at Ephesians 2:1).

In The Pulpit Commentary we read that "the death ascribed to the Ephesians in their natural state is evidently spiritual death, and "trespasses and sins," being in the dative seems to indicate the cause of death - 'dead through your trespasses and your sins' (R.V.)" (The Pulpit Commentary)

Paul also tells the believers at Colosse the following:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses"
(Col.2:13).​

In Vincent's Word Studies we read the following: "In your sins...the dative is instrumental, through or by" (Marvin R. Vincent, Vincent's Word Studies)

At Colossians 2:13 we read that Paul tells these people that they were dead previously but now have been made "alive with Christ." This can only be speaking of them receiving spiritual life so their death was a spiritual death. So these people died spiritually as a result of their own sin. That means that they were alive spiritually before they sinned because no one can die spiritually unless he is first alive spiritually. And the only possible way that these people were alive spiritually before they sinned is because they emerged from the womb spiritually alive.

That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead and that completely destroys the theory of Original Sin which teaches that all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead. Thomas R. Schreiner is clearly in error when he says that "all people sin individually because they enter the world spiritually dead on the basis of their union with Adam" (Thomas R. Schreiner, Adam, the Fall, and Original Sin", 273-74).

These verses by themselves disprove the theory of Original Sin and no one has yet been able to prove anything which I said is in error.

I/others, have addressed it, you habitual liar, but you, as is your MO on TOL, in deceit, say we have not.


You're a deceiving punk, known for lying about what others believe, misquoting others, and satanically accusing others of not addressing what you've said, and then spamming trap questions.

Notice the man worshiper Jer, once again spams what others assert, not being able to connect the dots himself, as in deceit, he posts verses in isolation,and deleting verses preceding/after.


These verses disprove your laughable, silly, satanic theory that the Lord Jesus Christ was not the only sinless person, ever to walk the earth, as you assert that children,and "the virgin Mary," are/were sinless, identical to the Saviour, and disproves your laughable, silly, satanic theory that the "virgin birth/conception," Him being conceived by the Holy Spirit, was/is unnecessary, superfluous, as you theorize that all children are born sinless, through males, and disproves your laughable, silly, satanic theory that men/women, today, are not born in the likeness, after the image of fallen Adam, per Genesis 5:3 KJV, but are born sinless, identical to the Saviour, and disproves your butchering/perverting Ecclesiastes 7:29 KJV, that, w/o a doubt whatsoever, when referring to "upright," refers to the LORD God's "pre-fall" creation of Adam/Eve, not us, who are after Adam "post fall" per Genesis 5:3 KJV, which you assert is translated wrong, and disproves your assertion that Job was a child, when he was discussed in the book of Job, as he was "upright," per your Ecclesiastes 7:29 KJV:.


Genesis-Revelation
no one has yet been able to prove anything which I said is in error.

Yes, we have, deceiver, as this is another example of one of your "assert/declare victory" alleged debate enders, your clown MO on TOL. Come on, old man...Give us another one of them...Give us a "Why should I believe you, instead of Paul????" Give us another "There can be no doubt whatsoever....."


Please, Jer? Teach us? Spam another "Sir whatchacallit says...." Please?

Ephesians 2 KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Jerry post verses, in isolation, again, and deletes verses 2-3.


The bible says, by nature, we are children of wrath=from birth, despite his satanic butchering of what Paul is conveying.






Jerry: An apple tree becomes an apple tree, only after it produces apples.

Vs.

The Bible: An apple tree produces apples, because it is an apple tree, by nature.

Luke 13:6 KJV He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

Matthew 21 KJV
19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.



Jer: No, "Jesus!!!!" That is not a fig tree!!! There is no fruit, either bad, or good, there is no fruit growing, so it is not!!! It only becomes a fig tree after it produces fruit, either good, or bad, and not by nature!!!!!!

You're a silly, ignorant Acts 2 clown, not in my league, with your perverted "we are all born without sin like the Saviour" made up doctrine of demons.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You are ignorant because you can't even understand that when a person sins he dies spiritually.

You are so ignorant that you don't even know what the word "dead" means in the following verse:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

These people were told that they were "dead" even though they were still alive physically. But you are ignorant in regard to what kind of death Paul was referring to there.

"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth"
(2 Tim.3:7).​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Ephesians 2 KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Jerry post verses, in isolation, again, and deletes verses 2-3.


The bible says, by nature, we are children of wrath=from birth, despite his satanic butchering of what Paul is conveying.

At the time a person sins then that person can be described as a child of wrath. Even John Calvin said that "Paul never could have said that all are by nature the children of wrath...it is obvious that the nature there referred to is not nature such as God created."

According to little johnnie's ideas if an infant dies he is headed to hell and he will be there for eternity even though that infant is as innocent as the day is long.

Sonny boy really doesn't know or care to know the righteous God who would never do such a thing.
 
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