Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[beloved57]

Yes Believing is a Work !

Yes Believing is a Work !

We know that believing is a work by Jesus statement here Jn 8:39

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Now think about it, what are the works of Abraham they would do if they were Abraham's real children ? The works of Abraham that would constitute them and manifest them the True Children of Abraham, is believing on Christ or Faith Gal 3:7

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Now this statement by Christ in Jn 8:39, makes it quite clear, that He equates or regards Faith and or Believing as Works !

Now, understand this, if one says they are Justified or Saved before God, on the basis of their Faith or believing, then they are witnessing to Salvation and or Justification before God by Works, which is contrary to scripture and even Abraham's own Justification before God Eph 2:8-9 and Rom 4:1-2

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

If Abraham was Justified by his act of believing, then he could boast or glory, but not before God !

 

[larssc]

lar



Thats bad, you should know that. Do you profess to be a christian or a believer ?



Wow !

I want to explain my position. It is not a trite as I put it. I am regenerate, born again, and I have that assurance. I believe in the Doctrines of Grace, or TULIP. I believe the Bible teaches double predestination. Like Calvin I think that this is a "horrible Decree", but is plainly detailed in Romans 9.

"Just as God is the ultimate cause of election, so also God is the ultimate cause of reprobation. Calvin would not sidestep this conclusion. Indeed, it is the frank acknowledgment of God’s reprobation that prompts Calvin’s piercing confession: “It is a horrible decree.”

Calvin did not pretend to understand why God ordains some to reprobation any more than he understood why God elects some to salvation. He could only declare: “the reason of divine righteousness is higher than man’s…slender wit can comprehend.”

Calvin’s conception of reprobation is incomplete without an important corollary. Although God is viewed as the ultimate cause of reprobation, still Calvin insists that “none undeservedly perish.” Condemnation of the reprobate occurs “because men deserved it on account of impiety, wickedness, and ungratefulness.” None suffer punishment apart from a consideration of personal guilt. Calvin does not attempt to explain how these two aspects of reprobation fit: he simply embraces the tension."

I do not accept the tension, although I know that God is just. God sends people to hell for eternity. I hope for a way out for those non elect. I believe mercy is fundamental to God, even though there is no convincing argument for either ultimate reconciliation or anihilation of the reprobate. See one short page: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections, by Thomas Talbot


I did not mean to hijack your thread. I agree with most of what you say.

 

[Faire]

No one is talking about believing being work in Jn 8:39. The whole argument is about Jews being slaves (thus needing to be set free) or not, as they are Abraham's children - his physical descendants in genes and faith. Now if you are putting it together with Gal 3:17 it creates nonsense - in Jn 8:34-37 Jesus is clearly saying that they are Abrahams descendants AND that they are in sin, later in the same chapter He tells them that they do not believe Him and so their true father is Devil (vs 45). It points to the other direction - that their sin was not believing in Jesus and not loving Him.

 

[beloved57]

faire

No one is talking about believing being work in Jn 8:39.

No one is talking about about believing not being a work in Jn 8:39. Nevertheless, Christ equates Believing with Works ! It is Faith that distinguish's the Children of Abraham Gal 3:7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Now, if one bases their Justification before God because they believed, they are basing it upon their works, and are under the curse !

 

[beloved57]

larc

I want to explain my position. It is not a trite as I put it. I am regenerate, born again, and I have that assurance. I believe in the Doctrines of Grace, or TULIP. I believe the Bible teaches double predestination. Like Calvin I think that this is a "horrible Decree", but is plainly detailed in Romans 9.

You think something that God doeth, is horrible ? Thats not a good testimony for God, I do not care if calvin taught the same sentiment or not ! For I am not here to promote calvin but God's Truth !

Although God is viewed as the ultimate cause of reprobation, still Calvin insists that “none undeservedly perish.” Condemnation of the reprobate occurs “because men deserved it on account of impiety, wickedness, and ungratefulness.”

That is True, but that is because God purposed it that way, He intentionally purposed that their eternal damnation would be because of their wickedness. God purposed with the Elect that for the same impiety, wickedness, and ungratefulness, that He would show mercy to them !

 

[beloved57]

The Son of God Issue !

The Son of God Issue !

The issue of the Only Begotten Son. In apostate religion there is a very deceptive false teaching in regards to the Person of the Son of God, which is called the Eternal Generation of the Son of God. This apostate teaching states that the Deity of the Son of God, that which constitutes Him Very God of Very God, that it is a derivative Deity, of a secondary constitution, and not Self Existent and Independent as that of the Father and the Spirit. One of the leading components for this false teaching is the Nicene creed, note what it says here:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made;

Notice carefully how it states that the Only Begotten of the Father, begotten of the Father [ Derived] Very God begotten [derived] not made ! Folks thats a contradiction for both begotten and Made denote a dependent existence, which is not fitting for God !

Such a teaching as this is Blasphemous, a subtle attack on the Deity of Jesus Christ, that of the Logos of God, which scripture teaches was God Jn 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We dare not think that Deity was of any producing higher than itself, or a product of some kind of generation.

The scripture however does inform us of a Sonship of Christ that is Eternally begotten or Generated, but this is related to Him Being the Head and Surety Life of His Body the Church Rev 3:14


14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Col 1:15-18

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

But this being of His is in Addition to and Joined to His Self Existing Deity as the Logos of God ! This must be understood to avoid the present blasphemy of the Nicene Creed teaching !

 

[beloved57]

tb

Work is an Act, but Act is not necessarily a Work.

Please, give me a break !

 

[beloved57]

The Gift of God is Eternal Life !

The Gift of God is Eternal Life !

The Gift of God is Eternal Life through Jesus Christ Our Lord. This Gift is not an offer, that is a cheat put on us by the devil and his messengers, but it is the giving of us a brand new life, a making us of an New Creature, a New Man as Per Eph 4:24

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Thats the Gift of Eternal Life given, this Man can Never die. This comes through New Birth, by and through The Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, He causes each one to be born again from above, by the Resurrection of Christ from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

This is Eternal Life, born of Incorruptible Seed 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This is the Gift of God James 1:17-18

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

This New Life [Eternal Life] is manifested or brought forth by the Word of Truth or the Gospel Eph 1:13; 1 Pet 1:25 ! Notice who is having the Gospel preached to them, those of vs 23, born again of incorruptible seed !

 

[beloved57]

Does not get what he wants !

Does not get what he wants !

Why is it that the antichrist followers believe in a god who desires something as per 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The word will here is the greek word thelō:


to will, have in mind, intend

a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

b) to desire, to wish

c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

d) to take delight in, have pleasure

But yet he fails to perform it ! But the God of Scripture and of the Saints, whatever His Soul Desireth, that He doeth Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. or He performs as Isa 9:7

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

And it is also written of this Great Deity Isa 14:24

The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

The antichrist followers do not realize that God's Desire in 1 Tim 2:4 is also His Purpose ! And the God of scripture says, as I have purposed, so shall it stand , and so shall it stand !

The Antichrist followers do say that man can thwart what God has purposed or desired, They say that man can prevent God from carrying out His Saving Purpose unto everyone God so desires to be saved, and to come into a knowledge of the Truth, this is nothing short of Blasphemy and the deification of man, = The man of sin !

 

[beloved57]

Law preaching in disguise of Gospel Preaching !

Law preaching in disguise of Gospel Preaching !

Law preaching in disguise of Gospel Preaching ! Jesus said of the false prophets who come as sheep, but they are rally wolves in disguise Matt 7:15-20

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


Its the fruit of their understanding of the Gospel they preach, it is really law disguised as grace !

One sure way to identify a false prophet or preacher of the Gospel, if they preach a gospel that requires men to do something in the order to get Eternal Life, and also somewhere down the line will set forth that the neglect of that requirement is to your everlasting peril, then they preach salvation by law keeping, by works, because law preaching will always require a doing of something to get saved with the threat of punishment if its not done !

 

[beloved57]

Those who make God imperfect !

Those who make God imperfect !

By their fruits you shall know them ! Speaking of false prophets, Christ says this Matt 7:15-18

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

What fruit is Jesus speaking of here ? Well its not the fruit of the Spirit that Paul writes on in Gal 5:22 because men by the strength of nature can emulate good moral qualities, in fact, that is what Jesus means by they have on sheep clothing outwardly, that which man takes pride in, like the hypocritical jews here Matt 23:38

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Yes men can emulate being people of faith, joy, peace and patience and etc, in fact, Paul says they appear as ministers of righteousness 2 Cor 11:14-15

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The word righteousness means:

integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking feeling, and acting

This is also morality, which means also:


conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.

moral quality or character.

So Satan's servants or ministers do have a emphasis on morality because they know that is impresses men, with it we appear righteous to men as Jesus said in Matt 23:38

But what the false preachers or servants of Satan cannot emulate, and that is an Spiritual Understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Person of God, the True God, and so their fruit of a lack of understanding the things of God as taught by the Spirit, this exposes them as false prophets to the True People of God, and so by the fruit of their Spiritual Understanding or lack thereof, we shall know them. Yes these false believers will have very commendable morals in their religious ways, and by that, they deceive many !

One of the doctrinal fruits that expose them as false prophets is that which makes God imperfect is this 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If God so willed something here, He desires it, He purposes it, He determined it, resolved it, but yet the false preachers says He does not perform, contrary to Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

So a non performance of that God wills to occur, denotes an imperfection in God. It as well denotes an imperfection in His Wisdom and the ability of Christ, and Christ's failure to accomplish God's will, in seeking and saving that which was Lost Lk 19:10. Unless we suppose that those in 1 Tim 2:4 be a different bunch altogether than those God sent Christ to seek and to save that were lost here Lk 19:10 !

The false preachers and their followers will confess that God does not perform what He desires in regards to 1 Tim 2:4, this is Blasphemy !

 

[beloved57]

They have a form of godliness but deny the power !

They have a form of godliness but deny the power !

2 Tim 3:5

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Many today who call themselves Preachers of the Gospel of Christ, and of His saving Cross, yet do they deny the Effectual Saving Operations of His Cross, for this Paul did not do, nor any other truly called preacher of the Cross, for by the Powerful Effects of the Cross Paul said Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Paul in essence was saying that by Christ's Cross, He was delivered from this present evil world by the will of God Gal 1:4

4 Who gave himself for our sins [ The Cross], that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Thats why he was by it [ The Cross] crucified unto the world and it to him.

As a result of the Cross of Christ men and women for whom He died are converted to God. But we have those in false religion who boast on the Cross and claim to preach it to the Glory of God, and yet they deny its saving Efficacy to deliver all for whom Christ died !

 

[beloved57]

No Wrath on the Elect !

No Wrath on the Elect !

How can the wrath of God be abiding upon one for whom Christ died, even as they are unbelievers as indicated for these Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.[/B]

When the fact is, even as unbelievers and or enemies, they have been reconciled to God by the death of Christ, His Son Rom 5:10b

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now it is inconsistent to say that these reconciled enemies, by Christ's death, are as unbelievers abiding under God's wrath, that is impossible, furthermore the unbelievers in Jn 3:36 ,it is stated that they shall not see life, simply meaning they will never be saved, but the enemies and unbelievers in Rom 5:10, who are reconciled by Christ's death, the promise to them is that they Shall BE Saved by His Life !

So again it is impossible for them to be those unbelievers in Jn 3:36 under God's abiding Wrath !

 

[Cross Reference]

God could never decree anyone to sin. Sin is not of Him that He could do so.

 

[beloved57]

No Wrath on the Elect ! Pt 2

No Wrath on the Elect ! Pt 2

God's Wrath is against sin and transgressions made against His Law make no doubt about it Eph 5:3-6

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Rom 1:18

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

All of which sins for those Christ died for, hath been abolished by His Cross, done away with Col 2:14

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

All the sins that God's Justice had recorded against the Elect, all their Transgressions Isa 53:5 and Trespasses, all were imputed to Christ's Charge, not theirs 2 Cor 5:19, and by His Death took them away or took it [ the record of them for each Elect Person] out of the way !, His Cross Work took them all Away, to never be before His Law and Justice again, and this was accomplished before they believed, before they were born to begin committing them. So how is it that anyone Christ died for, even before they believe, that God's Wrath abideth on them or is revealed from heaven upon them Rom 1:18 ?? How are they yet condemned for any sin they are committing while unbelievers since those sins have been already laid to Christ Charge and He bore the penalty of Death for them already and took them away forever Jer 50:20

In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Also Unbelief cannot be why they are condemned and under God's Wrath, because for one it is an iniquity itself that was laid upon Christ, and secondly, those in Jn 3:18 were condemned already before it was manifested they were by their unbelief Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Unbelief is simply a symptom of being in a condemned state, because that one has no Saviour or Mediator and their sins remained unappeased before God's law and Justice !

 

[beloved57]

I have finished the Work thou gavest me to do !

I have finished the Work thou gavest me to do !

Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Christ here has stated that He accomplished the undertaking the Father gave Him to do !

Now if the Work, the undertaking, the employment that the Father gave Him to do was saving Work as in Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

The word seek is a verb that means to endeavor, to undertake, to work !

So His Work was to undertake to save that which was Lost. And so if God desires all men to be saved and come to the Knowledge of the Truth, and that was Christ's Work to accomplish for the Father, but yet some of those specific all men 1 Tim 2:4 do not get saved as the Father desired, and it was Christ Work to do so, then how can Christ honestly say, that He finished or accomplished the Work the Father gave Him to do ?

 

[beloved57]

The Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand !

The Pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His Hand !

Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

What does this word pleasure mean ? It is the hebrew word chephets and means:


delight, pleasure

a) delight

b) desire, longing

c) the good pleasure

d) that in which one takes delight

It means purpose as Per Ecc 3:1,17

I think this is important because the greek word will in 1 Tim 2:4 is thelo and means:


to will, have in mind, intend

a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose

b) to desire, to wish

c) to love

1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing

d) to take delight in, have pleasure

As you can see I highlighted how both words means the same !

Now of course the Isa 53:10 Passage is speaking of Christ and saving Work effected by His Death.

Now, if the Pleasure of the Lord [ God the Father] prospered in His Hand, that is , it was successful,

And it was the God's pleasure that all men be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth as per 1 Tim 2:4

And it was Christ's Saving obligation to seek and to save that which was Lost Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

And it cometh not to pass that all whom the Lord desired to be saved [and not lost] 1 Tim 2:4, then how say the Prophecy that the Pleasure of the Lord prospered in His Hand ? We must conclude therefore that scripture bears a false testimony as to the success of the Lord Jesus Christ and the pleasure of the Lord prospering in His Hand or we must say that the saving of those in 1 Tim 2:4 was not the pleasure that Christ was to have prosper in His hand, which would leave us confused as to why Jesus would say what He did in Luke 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

I challenge anyone to give me some answers here, especially those that say it is the pleasure of the Lord for all men without exception to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth as per 1 Tim 2:4 and it does not turn out so ! Care to explain what happened to Christ prospering in this His Father's desire ?

 

[beloved57]

Rom 10:20

Rom 10:20

Rom 10:20

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

This verse of scripture, if properly understood, demolishes all conditional Salvation, whether by Faith, Repentance, or whatever Gospel Obedience, God states His Purpose of Grace, in that He was found of them [Gentiles] that sought Him not, and was made manifest unto them that asked for me not. The word manifest here is the greek word emphanēs and means:


manifest

a) fig. of God giving proofs of his saving grace and thus manifesting himself

This God does by sending them the Gospel of their Salvation, in fact it speaks of their entire conversion by Saving Grace !

For it was always predetermined in the saving Counsels of Israel God's Chosen People that included was also a remnant of the Gentiles, so we read Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isa 49:6

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

This all speaks to God's Election of Grace in Salvation !

 

[beloved57]

Is Christ's Death ever Worthless ?

Is Christ's Death ever Worthless ?

1 Pet 1:19

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

For one to belch out such a blasphemy as, Christ's Death is Worthless without the Work of the Holy Spirit, high handedly and presumptuously attacks the meritorious cause of Salvation, Christ's Death.

The word worthless means:

adj

1.

without practical value or usefulness


2.

without merit; good-for-nothing

All that the Spirit does in the Elect subsequently, was procured by Christ's meritorious Death, He applies the Redemption so procured. We do grant that the Work of the Spirit is the efficient cause of actual conversion, however that is solely premised upon the foundation of the Meritorious Cause of the Blood of Christ alone !

Those who belch out this blasphemy are stealthily trying to enter mans works into Salvation,m something he must do !

 

[beloved57]

God in Christ gives Repentance !

God in Christ gives Repentance !

Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The man of sin followers or the antichrist crowd, they have practiced much deceit in order to rob Christ of His Glory in Saving a Sinner; that through His work on the Cross, He hath obtained and does bestow upon all for whom He died, Repentance unto Life ! However they by their craft and deceit have taught and do teach that repentance is a duty, a condition that men must perform in order to their justification before God ! The fact is, that both faith and Repentance are things that are well pleasing in God's sight, that the Covenental Death of Christ, as the Shepherd of the Sheep procured for them through the blood of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20-21

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Note Vs 21 God does or will do, for all whom Christ died [all the sheep] in us, that which is pleasing in His sight, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST , and it is to Him be the Glory, forever and ever, but no , the man of sin followers, the conditionalists, would steal this Glory from Christ, and crown themselves with it, and whom shall shortly give an account for it at the White Throne Judgment !