I didn't ask if they were both important, I asked which is more important?
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Free Will
- Thread starter Aetheryn
- Start date
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strange reasoning. Jesus did not make Peter deny Him.
popsthebuilder
New member
Don't speak to me if you can't even show an ioda of honesty with yourself or others.
Really
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beloved57
Well-known member
Don't speak to us if you don't have a scripture that says man has a freewill.
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I gave you 15 in post 1022. Care to comment on them.
I said I will I went and read them. Their pretty good.
What I see in this free will subject is. One side has the understanding that will is an absolute, and it isn't. If you look up the definition of will it is desire. And desire is not an absolute. Paul explained it very well. He had a will but couldn't achieve it.
Rom 7:15-25
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
(NKJ)
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
More truth to share................
More truth to share................
I and others have already shared many 'scriptures'. Go back and review those. I've also shared much philosophical supports, logics and reasonings on the subject. Did you forget the concept of 'co-operation', 'covenant-relationship', 'partnership', adventuring together? Remember, that it is man's 'response-ability' that enables him to enter into partnership with God, to engage in covenant-relationship.
The LORD said below -
Would the LORD command man to 'choose' something he was unable to choose? Would 'God' set before man, two options....if he had no ability to choose between them?
Among the previous events and passages I've left you, concerns the freedom to choose of Adam & Eve, and the Lord speaking to Cain about his discontent, that his desires were giving birth to sin, but that he had the power to master it. Other places clearly show a person or the people returning to the Lord,....you see,..they have the ability to repent, to re-turn to God, to committ their will, to the doing of God's will. Such actions indicate the freedom and ability to do so, by God's allowance, inspiration and guidance of course.
Another example jumping into the NT,...Paul is ever instructing his disciples to 'walk in the Spirit', so that they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Why would Paul say to 'stand in the liberty where Christ has made you free, and do not fall back into the flesh, if they didn't have a choice to what power, force or influence to submit themselves to? Why is God or any religious teachers, prophets, sages, avatars, messiahs....giving man instructions, commands, directions....if man does not have the power to choose, apply, incorporate or practice anything?
See above,....Paul admits they were called to be free (or applies some concept of 'freedom' by faith in Christ),...but instructs them to submit, surrender to and co-operate with the Spirit,...see that? It looks like they have a CHOICE. Do you follow that?
The call continues in the last book of the NT, -
The whole Bible, and experience itself, reveals we using our freedom to choose, to engage, co-operate, co-create, co-venture with 'God' and others. This is what LIFE is about. Life is an inter-active engagement.
More truth to share................
I and others have already shared many 'scriptures'. Go back and review those. I've also shared much philosophical supports, logics and reasonings on the subject. Did you forget the concept of 'co-operation', 'covenant-relationship', 'partnership', adventuring together? Remember, that it is man's 'response-ability' that enables him to enter into partnership with God, to engage in covenant-relationship.
The LORD said below -
Would the LORD command man to 'choose' something he was unable to choose? Would 'God' set before man, two options....if he had no ability to choose between them?
Among the previous events and passages I've left you, concerns the freedom to choose of Adam & Eve, and the Lord speaking to Cain about his discontent, that his desires were giving birth to sin, but that he had the power to master it. Other places clearly show a person or the people returning to the Lord,....you see,..they have the ability to repent, to re-turn to God, to committ their will, to the doing of God's will. Such actions indicate the freedom and ability to do so, by God's allowance, inspiration and guidance of course.
Another example jumping into the NT,...Paul is ever instructing his disciples to 'walk in the Spirit', so that they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Why would Paul say to 'stand in the liberty where Christ has made you free, and do not fall back into the flesh, if they didn't have a choice to what power, force or influence to submit themselves to? Why is God or any religious teachers, prophets, sages, avatars, messiahs....giving man instructions, commands, directions....if man does not have the power to choose, apply, incorporate or practice anything?
See above,....Paul admits they were called to be free (or applies some concept of 'freedom' by faith in Christ),...but instructs them to submit, surrender to and co-operate with the Spirit,...see that? It looks like they have a CHOICE. Do you follow that?
The call continues in the last book of the NT, -
The whole Bible, and experience itself, reveals we using our freedom to choose, to engage, co-operate, co-create, co-venture with 'God' and others. This is what LIFE is about. Life is an inter-active engagement.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Enough already with "show us the scripture" - thats a major COP OUT
Enough already with "show us the scripture" - thats a major COP OUT
We've been sharing plenty of scriptures with your hard head so far. Apparently nothing penetrates :bang:
Pops asked a very legitimate question dear,.....he asks what reason is there to believe that God does NOT allow man the freedom to choose anything ?. Its a very honest, simple, direct question,....why cant you or Nanja answer that? Could it be that you are both so encrusted over with your dogma and entrenched belief-system, a mind held in 'grid-lock', that you cannot see anything else but what your idolatrous mind-set has erected forth as its own golden calf? It appears this 'golden calf' (a 'version', 'mis-representation' of 'God') has become the object of your worship. Its your own 'image' or 'portraiture' of 'God'....admittedly.
Your inability to engage our points intelligently with reason and logic, and the continual spouting of "show me scripture that man has a free will!"....is telling. Its all you apparently have thus far....which isn't much. Your TULIP wilted long ago. I think its time to start a new garden
Enough already with "show us the scripture" - thats a major COP OUT
We've been sharing plenty of scriptures with your hard head so far. Apparently nothing penetrates :bang:
Pops asked a very legitimate question dear,.....he asks what reason is there to believe that God does NOT allow man the freedom to choose anything ?. Its a very honest, simple, direct question,....why cant you or Nanja answer that? Could it be that you are both so encrusted over with your dogma and entrenched belief-system, a mind held in 'grid-lock', that you cannot see anything else but what your idolatrous mind-set has erected forth as its own golden calf? It appears this 'golden calf' (a 'version', 'mis-representation' of 'God') has become the object of your worship. Its your own 'image' or 'portraiture' of 'God'....admittedly.
Your inability to engage our points intelligently with reason and logic, and the continual spouting of "show me scripture that man has a free will!"....is telling. Its all you apparently have thus far....which isn't much. Your TULIP wilted long ago. I think its time to start a new garden
beloved57
Well-known member
You haven't shared a scripture that says man has a freewill!
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He does not have to. Others have and you have not replied!
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Those following have seen that you have failed to respond to my commentary, the particular points shared in them, the passages quoted there, and my direct question to you as well. Why is that?
Nanja
Well-known member
Your commentary is just human reasoning.
We haven't seen scriptural authority proving man has a free will.
The Word of God states emphatically that God does all things according to His Will:
Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
I think its sad that your 'God' is going to 'pass over' (via 'preterition') probably thousands/millions of souls, let them PERISH or be eternally tormented in hellfire forever and ever,....by no choice of their own, with no relief or salvation, EVER! That is sad. And this is the 'God' you claim to adore and worship. - that is pretty twisted.
beloved57
Well-known member
Where is the scripture that says man has a freewill?
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What have you to say to this;
Bible Verses About Free Will
Bible verses related to Free Will from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance - Sort By Book Order
Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
John 1:12-13 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: (Read More...)
2 Timothy 2:26 - And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Galatians 5:16-17 - [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Read More...)
Romans 10:9-10 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Read More...)
Genesis 2:16-17 - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: (Read More...)
Psalms 37:23 - The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Read More...)
Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Mark 8:34 - And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Ezekiel 18:30-32 - Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. (Read More...)
From the scriptures above me, you can apply critical thinking and determine that God has given man free will.
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Nanja
Well-known member
God does all things according to His Will Dan. 4:35.
That's Truth!
So you don't believe in the God of the scriptures,
but the god of your own understanding Eph. 4:18.
See God has created some to be vessels of Wrath,
and some to be vessels of His Mercy Rom. 9:11; 22-23.
Eph. 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
NO ONE DENIES THAT GOD DOES THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL.
You need to realize that man's will is separate from God's will. Man's will is not God's will.
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