ECT Forgiving and Forgiveness

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The God of Jesus was not a psychotic sociopath. Sorry, but that's the God I see in Jesus. A nonviolent God of love and mercy who never stoops to the revenge fantasies, judgement and violence of us imperfect human beings.

All of the divine ethnic cleansing in the Bible is the natural consequence of human beings reaping the rewards of their own evil deeds.

God does not love us by disrespecting us, punishing us or hitting us like our own human fathers did.

"Call no one on earth your father," Jesus said.

You NEED to read and study the Old Testament. You seem to know
nothing about the God of the Old Testament? By the way, Christ IS
God in the flesh, so the God of the Old Testament is the same as the
Lord Jesus Christ who walked this world 2,000 years ago!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It is God the Father who will cast the unbelievers into the Lake of Fire, where
they will spend eternity in torment.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

A7, you're very myopic when it comes to your interpretation of who God is?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I believe Christ is the norm of the Bible, and the actual preacher who walked the dusty roads of Palestine is the norm of Christ.

Jesus stands for love, forgiveness and support.

John of Patmos stands for the Christians who were oppressed, tortured and killed by Nero. And his reaction to that was a litany of terrible metaphoric images and scare tactics for the faithful.

I don't sanction violence and I don't believe Jesus did either. But many of his followers did. One of Jesus' last phrases was to Pilate when he said his "kingdom was not of this world." If you bother to read the entire verse, he says this because his followers then were nonviolent and would not attack Rome because he was captured and sentenced to death.

That is the Christianity I subscribe to. Apparently your version, opinion and interpretation is different than mine.

But I can marshal all the evidence for my faith by specific quotes of Jesus and a close look at the patterns of his life standing up against the powers and principalities of the empire--either Roman or American.

Jesus is Lord, not Caesar.

Have you read the ENTIRE Bible, cover to cover?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The God of the Old Testament (The same as the God who walked this earth)
was, at times mighty rough with certain people. There was a LOT of bloodshed
in the Old Testament. Do you accept that the God of the Old Testament, is the
same as the God that came in the flesh?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Remember, they are ONE!

 

[aikido7]

You have seen contradiction and discrepancies because you don't know how to "Rightly Divide the Word of God.

I take the word of God seriously because I take the Word seriously as a whole. You seem to have divided your opinion of the Word from my opinion.

But because there are discrepancies and different views and theologies in the Bible, I am bound to read them all honestly and take them seriously.

You divide Jesus' word into verses you believe and those you do not, just like most every other exegete. You seem unable to accept Jesus in any other terms other than your own post-modern ones.

You have run from such sayings as to "Pray for those who persecute you," "Do not judge," do not react violently against those who are evil, always pray in secret and pay attention to the logs in your own eye before you deem to arrogantly point out the tiny specks of sawdust in your brother and sisters' eye.

You are handicapped because you cherry pick those parts you prefer over the parts that are too difficult for you to acknowledge or follow.

You keep holding on to theological doctrines instead of meeting Jesus on his own terms. You declare in low and sonorous tones to believe, believe, believe--Believe in the virgin birth, believe in the blood sacrifice, believe in Jesus as Lord, God and Son of God.

But you seem unable to try and change your own behavior that Jesus warned us about.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Do you remember Ananias and Sapphira from the New Testament? They were struck dead for lying to the Holy Spirit! Acts 5:3 states: "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I take the word of God seriously because I take the Word seriously as a whole. You seem to have divided your opinion of the Word from my opinion.

But because there are discrepancies and different views and theologies in the Bible, I am bound to read them all honestly and take them seriously.

You divide Jesus' word into verses you believe and those you do not, just like most every other exegete. You seem unable to accept Jesus in any other terms other than your own post-modern ones.

You have run from such sayings as to "Pray for those who persecute you," "Do not judge," do not react violently against those who are evil, always pray in secret and pay attention to the logs in your own eye before you deem to arrogantly point out the tiny specks of sawdust in your brother and sisters' eye.

You are handicapped because you cherry pick those parts you prefer over the parts that are too difficult for you to acknowledge or follow.

You keep holding on to theological doctrines instead of meeting Jesus on his own terms. You declare in low and sonorous tones to believe, believe, believe--Believe in the virgin birth, believe in the blood sacrifice, believe in Jesus as Lord, God and Son of God.

But you seem unable to try and change your own behavior that Jesus warned us about.

Have you read the Bible cover to cover?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

He seems to not want to answer my simple question? Why? Could it be that he
hasn't read the entire Bible cover to cover, word for word? He doesn't seem to
like the verses that speak of the wrath of God?

 

[Danoh]

I take the word of God seriously because I take the Word seriously as a whole. You seem to have divided your opinion of the Word from my opinion.

But because there are discrepancies and different views and theologies in the Bible, I am bound to read them all honestly and take them seriously.

You divide Jesus' word into verses you believe and those you do not, just like most every other exegete. You seem unable to accept Jesus in any other terms other than your own post-modern ones.

You have run from such sayings as to "Pray for those who persecute you," "Do not judge," do not react violently against those who are evil, always pray in secret and pay attention to the logs in your own eye before you deem to arrogantly point out the tiny specks of sawdust in your brother and sisters' eye.

You are handicapped because you cherry pick those parts you prefer over the parts that are too difficult for you to acknowledge or follow.

You keep holding on to theological doctrines instead of meeting Jesus on his own terms. You declare in low and sonorous tones to believe, believe, believe--Believe in the virgin birth, believe in the blood sacrifice, believe in Jesus as Lord, God and Son of God.

But you seem unable to try and change your own behavior that Jesus warned us about.

On the other side of this cherry pick notion of yours is your one size fits all, Fact is, one size does not fit all:

Genesis 1:

29. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 9:

1. And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea;
into your hand are they delivered.
3. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Leviticus 11:

1. And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
3. Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
4. Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
5. And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
6. And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

1 Timothy 4:

1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5. For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Fact is, you do not know how to understand these things as they were meant.

As a result, you one size fits all of it; while accusing others of cherry picking.

Oh, I forgot, you are beyond labels - give me a break.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I wonder about posters who won't answer simple questions? Such as, what
church or denomination were you/are you, been affiliated with? And, have
you read the entire Bible? (The written Word of God)

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I take the word of God seriously because I take the Word seriously as a whole. You seem to have divided your opinion of the Word from my opinion.

But because there are discrepancies and different views and theologies in the Bible, I am bound to read them all honestly and take them seriously.

You divide Jesus' word into verses you believe and those you do not, just like most every other exegete. You seem unable to accept Jesus in any other terms other than your own post-modern ones.

You have run from such sayings as to "Pray for those who persecute you," "Do not judge," do not react violently against those who are evil, always pray in secret and pay attention to the logs in your own eye before you deem to arrogantly point out the tiny specks of sawdust in your brother and sisters' eye.

You are handicapped because you cherry pick those parts you prefer over the parts that are too difficult for you to acknowledge or follow.

You keep holding on to theological doctrines instead of meeting Jesus on his own terms. You declare in low and sonorous tones to believe, believe, believe--Believe in the virgin birth, believe in the blood sacrifice, believe in Jesus as Lord, God and Son of God.

But you seem unable to try and change your own behavior that Jesus warned us about.

This diatribe has NOTHING to do with what we've been discussing? Try and focus or change the subject to the weather?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Apparently, A7 thinks he knows what's going on in other people's minds.
I think he should concentrate on his own thoughts. He's busy trying to
analyze others while he's neglecting his own false misconceptions. He
refuses to answer the question of, "Have you read the entire Bible,
cover to cover?" It's a rather simple question and requires a yes or no
answer.

 

[God's Truth]

I have NEVER said that. But you already knew that.

You did say it you liar. You said that there are words written in the Holy Bible that were not from God but from men wanting to add their own teachings.

 

[God's Truth]

If you had never seen those verses before and then read them for the first time in a newspaper, what would it mean?

They mean exactly what they say without any imposed interpretation.
That explains plainly what I believe.

If you do not want to explain your beliefs then don't.

 

[God's Truth]

GT is "self righteous."

My righteousness comes from God, by obeying and believing everything He says. They are His words and His Way that I am righteous.


Our obedience leads us to righteousness see Romans 6:16.

We are righteous because we obey the perfect law see Romans 2:13.

We do what is right; therefore, we are righteous see 1 John 3:12.

The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in me and all those saved, those who live according to the Spirit, See Romans 8:4.

Righteous acts see Revelation 19:8

We are to offer the parts of our body to Him as instruments of righteousness. Romans 6:13

We are under control of righteousness Romans 6:20

We are to live a righteous life James 1:20

Righteous for what we do James 2:21, 25

 

[God's Truth]

I have NEVER said that. But you already knew that. You seem to enjoy miss-characterizing my faith and my biblical evidence because I think you are both alarmed and afraid of me. Because you have never heard your authority figures talk about the historical context of Jesus' mission, you really don't know how to think about it.

Let's be honest, God' Truth, shall we? You are the one who has doubt and suspicion because your God cannot protect you. God has already won, Dude.
A strong faith doesn't have to be defensive.


And Jesus and Israel would have never had the Roman Empire, either. Your distasteful rule about loving and killing--besides being profoundly immoral--would leave a loophole for those who love their family and kill them all and themselves. The Christian woman who killed her children in the bathtub did so because God told her they were demons. She loved them so much she drowned them all.

I have been studying Paul for years and learning to figure out the discrepancies and the contradictions. There is a pro-empire strain in some of the passages written by others that excuse imperial rule, putting down women, and sanctioning slavery. But I have also seen other passages that claim a loving God and the truth that Jew or Greek, Slave or Free, Male and Female are loved and accepted by the divine.

So I don't love Jesus because I have sin and struggle with it daily?

Nonsense.

I have found being non judgmental and struggling with my own hypocrisy and dishonesty and bigotry is always irksome. But the constant comfort of Jesus in my life helps me recognize those imperfect qualities and do something about them. I am a very unique Christian because of my beliefs. I am content and utterly trust God. No one can ever come between us.



Again, this says much more about you and your fear than it does me. It is a ridiculous statement.


Jesus tells me differently. I look at his words and his actions, and if his words and actions are not rooted in his own mission, then I have to conclude that he is being contradicted by the theology assigned to him by his later disciples.

Jesus had a unique voice. He did not speak as the all-too-human scribes did. He was so far beyond our human failings that he was declared God, Son of God, Prince of Peace and Messiah after his death.

He had no petty revenge feelings or immature reactions to others.
He spoke God's truth--a being who plays no favorites as Matthew 5 tells us and a God who desires "mercy, not sacrifice."

Those are the true words of Jesus because his entire life was lived according to those basic tenets.

Sorry, but my Jesus is not a hypocrite. He does not behave differently from his own teachings.

What you say is full of lies and evil against Jesus, as are the things you say about me.

 

[God's Truth]

There are rough times ahead.

If you are alive when he comes again, you had better not be caught in sin; you better be obeying, or it is called being caught naked. That goes for everyone.

 

[steko]

If you do not want to explain your beliefs then don't.

I did.
You didn't follow it.

Okay, let's go through it again.

When Jesus returns it will be at the Great White Throne Judgment. Everyone will be raised from the dead. The saved will meet Jesus in the air. The wrath will come on the earth.

There will be a new earth, and Jesus will HAND OVER THE KINGDOM TO THE FATHER.

Where do you get that Jesus will rule on this earth with people who reject him?!

No....when the LORD Jesus returns it'll be the judgement of nations, which is also called the judgement of the sheep and the goats. And it'll be done on this earth from the throne of David.
Before that time, the BOC had already met the LORD in the air.
The Kingdom will come to the earth.
The new earth will not come into view until the end of the Messianic reign from the throne of David on this earth.

Where does anyone say that the LORD Jesus will rule on this earth with people who reject Him?

Again.....did you ever reject Him?

Did you ever reject Him?

We have to be ready for when Jesus comes again because when he comes again it will not be to bear sin. How are these people who rejected him going to be forgiven if they have no one to forgive their sin?

Again....I have never seen where anyone has claimed that the LORD Jesus will be coming again to bear sin. Why do you continually say that?
No one has ever been or ever will be forgiven of sin except on the basis of Christ's finished work on the cross.

Again.....did you ever reject Him?
No one who continually rejects Him will have GOD's forgiveness.
How can you know that certain people will forever reject Him?

Did you ever reject Him?

Gen 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

How do you get that those scriptures nullify the scripture that says when Jesus comes again it will NOT be to BEAR SIN.

Well.....I really didn't think you'd get it.

You continue to say that, but I know of know one in this forum that believes that the Lord Jesus is coming again to bear sin. Actually....I don't know anybody anywhere that believes that.

Joseph's brothers rejected him.
The LORD's brethren rejected HIM.

Joseph, by faith in GOD, became ruler of the Kingdom of that time, second only to Pharaoh.
Christ sits at the right hand of the Father in the Father's throne.
Christ will rule on earth in the Kingdom of that time, second only to the Father.

Joseph's brethren did not recognize their brother and Joseph kept it hidden from them until his chosen time of revealing himself.
The Lord Jesus' brethren, Israel, are blinded in part and do not recognize their King and Messiah at this time. They will recognize Him and bow at His feet at His appointed time.

Then why would you ever get that the Jesus will live on the earth with the Jews who reject him?

Do all Jews reject Him?

Will all Jews/Israel always reject Him?

Did you ever reject Him?

Scripture says that they will not all nor always reject Him.

Did you ever reject Him?

I don't.

Then what do you believe?

I believe what the LORD says.


Eze 20:30 Wherefore say unto the house of Israel,
Eze 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Eze 20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
Eze 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 20:39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
Eze 20:40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
Eze 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen[gentiles/nations].
Eze 20:42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
Eze 20:43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
Eze 20:44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Please explain your beliefs in your own words. How do I know what you think these scriptures mean unless you tell me?

If you had never seen those verses before and then read them for the first time in a newspaper, what would it mean?

They mean exactly what they say without any imposed interpretation.
That explains plainly what I believe.

If you do not want to explain your beliefs then don't.

To be continued: