Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I knew that it wouldn't be long before you would be calling me names.
All I did was to quote the Scriptures to show what the truth is and all you can do is to call me names.
ECT Forgiving and Forgiveness
- Thread starter Psalmist
- Start date
I knew that it wouldn't be long before you would be calling me names.
All I did was to quote the Scriptures to show what the truth is and all you can do is to call me names.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Your ideas are not those of the giants of MAD, including Sir Robert Anderson and J.C. O'Hair. On the Berean Bible Society website we read the following about J.C. O'Hair:
"Pastor O’Hair was, without a doubt, the one person who, more than any other, was used of God to establish among believers what Paul, by inspiration calls, “the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery."
And here is his opinion to those like you in the Neo-MAD camp who teach that the Twelve were not in the Body of Christ:
"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis mine] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).
If Pastor O'Hair was on this forum you would be calling him a liar because you call me a liar and my theology agrees with his.
Its there - just read Isaiah, for example. Prophesied Grace - Israel's rise, then the Gentiles.
Paul touches on this in Romans 15:8-12.
8. Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9. And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
He has already related that is on hold, in 9-11.
Thus; the sense of 15:13's "Now the God of hope...", at which point he relates his ministry among the Gentiles "not where Christ was named," etc.
In this, my own understanding is that that was not the Mystery [though the Mystery was also related to the Cross] that was revealed only to and through the Apostle Paul.
Paul was born out of Israel's due time Prophesied Grace., 1 Cor. 15:8; in contrast to 1 Peter 1:9-13, etc.
Note the Gentile's Prophesied Grace in the following, for example - Mark 7:
24. And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.
25. For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26. The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
29. And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
30. And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
Only when she acknowledge Israel's priority, did He then allowed that nation's blessing to overflow to her.
I've already noted that the Apostle Paul also understood this - compare the following, as well.
Isaiah 60:
1. Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2nd Coming...
2. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
Then the Gentiles, through Israel's rise...
3. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isaiah 66:
19. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that
have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Note Paul's words in Acts 13, actually understood in Romans 11.
Acts 13:
44. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Verse 46 and 47 refers to Israel's Prophesied commission among the Gentiles. And how that God had turned from that for Israel's blasphemy against the Spirit.
Romans 9-11 will later relate that said turning from Israel is temporary.
This "to the Jew first" is the issue of God's testimony through this odd new Apostle, that He has turned from Israel, at the same time that it is Paul's hope that he might save some, even as Israel continues to diminish away "for a season."
My understanding is that the Mystery has nothing to do with that Gentile Grace that was Prophesied. It foresees Israel's rise, not her fall.
Some see that differently, and that is fine. We are each at our own level of understanding these things,within Mid-Acts.
We should explore these things, at the same time "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind," Roman 14:5.
"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations" verse 1.
For its principle still applies - Galatians 6:
1. Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5. For every man shall bear his own burden.
When that continually fails, this kicks in - Romans 16:
17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
An aspect of causing divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine, is the very tactic of those who serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly... "that they may glory in your flesh," Gal. 6:13.
You don't strike me as that, so bring on what differences you might care to explore
I've known plenty of those from O'Hair's assembly. Only one of them behaved as you do - never wrong, every baiting others, and or turning every response into one more means to show that he alone is right.
I keep in touch with one of them to this day; we get along just fine.
You keep avoiding the real issue - your need to glory in your flesh among our own.
I'm sure O'Hair's discarded old socks had more humility remaining in them then you could even fathom. Don't; even compare yourself to that great man, you hypocrite.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is you and GM who keep avoiding the Scriptures because neither of you are willing to admit that your ideas are in error.
All both of you can do is run and hide from those verses and then call me names in the hope that no one will notice that you will not even attempt to defend your silly ideas.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Certain Gentiles in the OT had a hope by blessing Israel as per Genesis 12:3 KJV (blessers) and through Israel's rise (Isaiah 60:1-3 KJV), but not all (cursers Genesis 12:3 KJV). And the blessing was certainly not the gospel of Christ!
Body of Christ truth:
If we fast forward through Israel's history, we can see that through Israel's fall salvation came unto the Gentiles (Romans 11:11 KJV). I believe the scriptures bear out that the Gentiles that salvation came to/that the word of salvation was sent to (Paul's first sending Acts 26:17 KJV) during Paul's Acts provoking ministry were heirs according to the promise (Genesis 12:3 KJV, Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV). These were the Gentiles Paul found in the synagogue of the Jews (Acts 17:1-2 KJV, Acts 18:4 KJV). Their blessing was still a mystery pre-Paul. Their blessing came in the form of the forgiveness of sins (Acts 13:38-39 KJV). IOW, it came by Paul's "my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret since the world began,...a mystery hidden in the scriptures (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).
But to the "you Gentiles" like that of the Ephesians to whom Paul wrote the letter and to whom he was later sent (Acts 22:17-21 KJV) it was revealed "by the spirit" (Ephesians 3:5 KJV) not a mystery hidden in the scriptures/ "according to the scriptures" (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV). We (the "ye" of Ephesians 1:13 KJV) in time past were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV, but now are made nigh by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:13 KJV. It's a due time message that God would have all men to be saved including the likes of these Gentiles (Acts 20:24 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). We are "fellowheirs...by the gospel" (Ephesians 3:6 KJV) not "heirs according to the promise" like the Galatians (Galatians 3:29 KJV). These truths were hid in God and unsearchable in the OT (Ephesians 3:8-9 KJV)!
If you can see the difference in the Gentiles above, you have been made to see what is the fellowship (heirs and fellowheirs on the same ship) of the mystery (Ephesians 3:9 KJV) because the "we" who first trusted in Christ (Ephesians 1:12 KJV) beginning with Paul (1 Timothy 1:16 KJV) and including the Romans, Corinthians Galatians, Thessalonians and the "ye" who also trusted (Ephesians 1:13 KJV) like the Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians and us make up the one new man (Ephesians 2:11-15 KJV)!
Last edited:
God's Truth
New member
So if the lost sheep of Israel drink Jesus' blood and eat his flesh are they not a part of Jesus?
God's Truth
New member
There are not two different kingdoms.
You say the kingdom message to the Jews, and another kingdom with another message is to the Gentiles. That is nonsense. Just how many kingdoms do you say there are? lol
The kingdom of Christ and God; the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ; his kingdom and glory; the kingdom of God; the kingdom of his beloved Son; the kingdom of heaven; and the kingdom of light---ARE ALL THE SAME KINGDOM.
the kingdom of Christ and God." Ephesians 5:5
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.’" Revelation 11:15
who calls you into his kingdom and glory. 1 Thessalonians 2:12
the kingdom of God is within you."Luke 17:20-21
the kingdom of God ahead of you. Matthew 21:31.
the kingdom of God has come to you. Luke 11:20
the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, Romans 14:17
the kingdom of God.” Mark 12:34
the kingdom of God has come upon you. Matthew 11:28
the kingdom of his beloved Son," Colossians 1:13
the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matthew 23:13
the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.
Matthew 11:12
The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough.” Matthew 13:33
the kingdom of light. Colossians 1:12
Last edited:
God's Truth
New member
When Jesus comes again it will be at the Great White Throne Judgement; this is when all will be raised from the dead. The saved will meet him in the air, and then the wrath of God will come on the earth. There will be a new heaven and a new earth, and Jesus HANDS OVER THE KINGDOM TO THE FATHER. Where do you get Jesus will live on this earth again and rule? How are the Jews who reject Jesus going to be forgiven and saved? When Jesus comes again it will NOT be to bear sin.
GT, you certainly enjoy changing things that other posters say. I said,
there were two different "Messages" being preached, not Kingdoms.
What's wrong with you anyway?
there were two different "Messages" being preached, not Kingdoms.
What's wrong with you anyway?
God's Truth
New member
When Jesus returns it will be at the Great White Throne Judgment. Everyone will be raised from the dead. The saved will meet Jesus in the air. The wrath will come on the earth.
There will be a new earth, and Jesus will HAND OVER THE KINGDOM TO THE FATHER.
Where do you get that Jesus will rule on this earth with people who reject him?!
I fear you have some sort of mental disability GT? I hope I'm wrong.
God's Truth
New member
You said that Jesus taught the kingdom message to the Jews.
Paul taught about the kingdom message!
There is ONLY ONE KINGDOM, and only ONE MESSAGE.
If there is another message, then there is another kingdom, but there is not.
God's Truth
New member
Be careful how you judge, for you exposed your illness.
GT, have you ever been evaluated for any form of mental disorder? Your behavior on this forum is very suspicious.
This is a perfect example of what I was concerned about. You reversed
my serious inquiry about your possible mental disturbance. I don't know
if you even realized it?
God's Truth
New member
I do not have to insult you as you do me. All I have to do is speak God's Truth and it is offensive to you as nothing else can be.
God's Truth
New member
Matthew 10:25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
There is the Message about the earthly kingdom where Christ will
reign on the throne of David. And, there's the Grace Message given
to Paul by the "Ascended Christ." Paul preached that message to
the gentiles. Peter and the other Apostles preached the earthly
Kingdom Message to the House of Israel. Therein lies the difference.
What does that verse have to do with our discussion?