Feminism

[Skybringr]

Uh, sorry. Ya gotta listen to the Pope:

"Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church" (Evangelium Vitae 62).
​

~Keep on chuckling, big guy.~

If the Church considered abortion to be murder, she would put women who committed abortion in the same boat as actual murderers. Even as far back as the Early Ages, one never saw women in cages alongside murderers for their abortion.

The Synod held in Spain in the 4th century declared that any woman who committed abortion should be kept from communion for the rest of her life.

But then, Pope Innocent comes along and says abortion is okay as long as their is no quickening of the fetus.

Then it's considered murder again.

And then, Pope Gregory comes along and reinstates Pope Innocent's teaching.

The flip flopping kept going back in forth until Pope Leo in the 19th century when he stated it was wrong even under the circumstance of saving the woman's life.
And you all have basically stayed there.

There has never been an infallible statement to the degree such as the Assumption of Mary in regards to abortion. Only papal bulls, and they all conflict. It is left open to the believer; calling them murderers is just as bad as the act itself.

Therefore, there is nothing in Church teaching that calls for abortion being murder, apparently the only thing that drives such a belief is the pressure of society on the Church. Things that naive Catholics fall for every time.

 

[The 5 solas]

The Synod held in Spain in the 4th century declared that any woman who committed abortion should be kept from communion for the rest of her life.

But then, Pope Innocent comes along and says abortion is okay as long as their is no quickening of the fetus.

Then it's considered murder again.

And then, Pope Gregory comes along and reinstates Pope Innocent's teaching.

The flip flopping kept going back in forth until Pope Leo in the 19th century when he stated it was wrong even under the circumstance of saving the woman's life.

I thought these guys were all supposed to know what they are talking about, special line to God and all that. I mean...Papal Bull is right. lol No wonder they all conflict, because they were trying to match human wisdom against the wisdom of God.

This thread is supposed to be about Feminism....although abortion is a symptom very much so in our day and age...there is a thread already going on that is addressing if it is murder or not.

 

[Skybringr]

:chuckle: Of course. There's nothing in Scripture to support that paradigm. One can make Scripture support it if one wiggles it around enough but that's a strictly Catholic doctrine with no basis in God's Truth other than God found favor with Mary and she bore, as a virgin, Yeshua HaMashiach.

The Bible didn't fall out the sky one day, and it didn't exist until it was ordered under the decree of the Church leaders themselves.

Can you find the verse which states 'thou shalt make a printing press and give everyone bibles'?
The Bible was never even required, but the Church was. So think about that. Did a book shape the world, or did the Church? :thumb:

 

[annabenedetti]

If the Church considered abortion to be murder, she would put women who committed abortion in the same boat as actual murderers. Even as far back as the Early Ages, one never saw women in cages alongside murderers for their abortion.

The Synod held in Spain in the 4th century declared that any woman who committed abortion should be kept from communion for the rest of her life.

But then, Pope Innocent comes along and says abortion is okay as long as their is no quickening of the fetus.

Then it's considered murder again.

And then, Pope Gregory comes along and reinstates Pope Innocent's teaching.

The flip flopping kept going back in forth until Pope Leo in the 19th century when he stated it was wrong even under the circumstance of saving the woman's life.
And you all have basically stayed there.

There has never been an infallible statement to the degree such as the Assumption of Mary in regards to abortion. Only papal bulls, and they all conflict. It is left open to the believer; calling them murderers is just as bad as the act itself.

Therefore, there is nothing in Church teaching that calls for abortion being murder, apparently the only thing that drives such a belief is the pressure of society on the Church.

Okay, here's the catechism. Read it and go to confession if necessary:

Abortion
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75 God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81
2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82
2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83
"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

 

[Rusha]

The Bible didn't fall out the sky one day, and it didn't exist until it was ordered under the decree of the Church leaders themselves.

Can you find the verse which states 'thou shalt make a printing press and give everyone bibles'?
The Bible was never even required, but the Church was. So think about that. Did a book shape the world, or did the Church? :thumb:

This thread is about feminism, however, being that you are making claims in support of abortion and stating it is not murder, I started a thread where you can actually explain how a self professed, prolife Catholic came to such a conclusion.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102837

 

[IMJerusha]

If the Church considered abortion to be murder, she would put women who committed abortion in the same boat as actual murderers. Even as far back as the Early Ages, one never saw women in cages alongside murderers for their abortion.

The Synod held in Spain in the 4th century declared that any woman who committed abortion should be kept from communion for the rest of her life.

But then, Pope Innocent comes along and says abortion is okay as long as their is no quickening of the fetus.

Then it's considered murder again.

And then, Pope Gregory comes along and reinstates Pope Innocent's teaching.

The flip flopping kept going back in forth until Pope Leo in the 19th century when he stated it was wrong even under the circumstance of saving the woman's life.
And you all have basically stayed there.

There has never been an infallible statement to the degree such as the Assumption of Mary in regards to abortion. Only papal bulls, and they all conflict. It is left open to the believer; calling them murderers is just as bad as the act itself.

Therefore, there is nothing in Church teaching that calls for abortion being murder, apparently the only thing that drives such a belief is the pressure of society on the Church. Things that naive Catholics fall for every time.

Oh yes, there's naive Fr. William Saunders whose paper on abortion was printed by the Catholic News Agency. He states "the Roman Catholic Church from the beginning has consistently upheld the sanctity of the life of the unborn child and condemned the act of direct abortion. To oppose this teaching contradicts the revelation of Sacred Scripture and Christian tradition." In his papers he quotes naive St. Basil's letter to Bishop Amphilochius: "A woman who has deliberately destroyed a fetus must pay the penalty for murder" and "Those also who give drugs causing abortions are murderers themselves, as well as those who receive the poison which kills the fetus."

Perhaps you should just read the paper:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/r...ic-teaching/the-catholic-church-and-abortion/

At this point I'm seriously doubting you are a Catholic.

 

[IMJerusha]

The Bible didn't fall out the sky one day, and it didn't exist until it was ordered under the decree of the Church leaders themselves.

Can you find the verse which states 'thou shalt make a printing press and give everyone bibles'?
The Bible was never even required, but the Church was. So think about that. Did a book shape the world, or did the Church? :thumb:

Can you tell me how any of your assertions affect Scripture and Its content?
The Church shaped nothing for without Yeshua there would be no Church. It is God, Yeshua and Ruach HaKodesh doing the shaping.

 

[Skybringr]

Oh yes, there's naive Fr. William Saunders whose paper on abortion was printed by the Catholic News Agency. He states "the Roman Catholic Church from the beginning has consistently upheld the sanctity of the life of the unborn child and condemned the act of direct abortion. To oppose this teaching contradicts the revelation of Sacred Scripture and Christian tradition." In his papers he quotes naive St. Basil's letter to Bishop Amphilochius: "A woman who has deliberately destroyed a fetus must pay the penalty for murder" and "Those also who give drugs causing abortions are murderers themselves, as well as those who receive the poison which kills the fetus."

Perhaps you should just read the paper:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/r...ic-teaching/the-catholic-church-and-abortion/

At this point I'm seriously doubting you are a Catholic.

At this point I'm seriously doubting that any of you ever knew what you were talking about to begin with.

It's like: If one man says you're standing is right, then it's right. But if many men have inconsistent standings, it's not even worth issuing as evidence that there is something wrong with your standing.

You all go on hubris rather then sober reasoning. If the Church condemned it as murder, it would be treated as such. I know the difference between hubris and rationality. In thirty years from now, I can pretty much guarantee that the notion will change just like it always has throughout history.

The fact that you try to sink your teeth in and say that I'm not even Catholic just shows it for what it is. Based on what? This? The fact that the Bible says I'm right but that I'm wrong because a few men say so- it's absurd, just as feminism and the entirety of this thread.

The thing I'm concerned about is how many people actually attend and move with the Church, because one certainly doesn't have the perception of those who do.
Where you think the Church stands and what you are actually granted walking into a parish are two different things.

 

[meshak]

Feminism is evidence of unbelief and rebellion against the will and word of God.

What ignites and fuels feminism, is women refusing the Godly commands in Genesis 3:16

They abort their children and usurp their husbands.

That is as devilish as anything can possibly be. :devil:

According to Jabin, a woman should stay in an abusive marriage rather than divorcing, and he reduces abuse to "a few bruises." Mere collateral damage, in other words.

Do you agree with this Nang?

 

[IMJerusha]

At this point I'm seriously doubting that any of you ever knew what you were talking about to begin with.

It's like: If one man says you're standing is right, then it's right. But if many men have inconsistent standings, it's not even worth issuing as evidence that there is something wrong with your standing.

You all go on hubris rather then sober reasoning. If the Church condemned it as murder, it would be treated as such. I know the difference between hubris and rationality. In thirty years from now, I can pretty much guarantee that the notion will change just like it always has throughout history.

The fact that you try to sink your teeth in and say that I'm not even Catholic just shows it for what it is. Based on what? This? The fact that the Bible says I'm right but that I'm wrong because a few men say so- it's absurd, just as feminism and the entirety of this thread.

The thing I'm concerned about is how many people actually attend and move with the Church, because one certainly doesn't have the perception of those who do.
Where you think the Church stands and what you are actually granted walking into a parish are two different things.

In other words, you believe what you want to believe. You can, in your mind, make Scripture state what it does not and call yourself what you are not. Your perception is your reality regardless of what the reality is. Welcome to the wonderful world of paganism.

 

[Skybringr]

In other words, you believe what you want to believe. You can in your mind make Scripture state what it does not and call yourself what you are not. Your perception is your reality regardless of what the reality is. Welcome to the wonderful world of paganism.

A fetus was treated as property, and eye for eye was met with the injury of the woman.

The value of an infant was determined by it's gender and which seed it was made from.

If the infant was not completely Jewish, it was often sold to slavery for mere shekels.


I know the history and ways of the Levites very well, and how many translators have tried to make it about premature birth rather then the destruction of the fetus.
I know the inaccuracies that have been persuaded by bias, and I know the inconsistency of the teaching among the popes and saints.

I know all these things, where you all obviously do not. I believe what is true, and just like how popes thought that taking over the holy lands was immanent through the infallibility of God's army, so to can many be wrong about something else.

So i'll just leave it at that. You all want to call abortion murder but if you really believed it, you would go at it like we did Hitler's reign- a holocaust that can only be met with force.

But you all don't, because your bias is hubris and not fact. And that goes for all people in Christian history who guises themselves as speakers against supposed murder.
Catholic is not defined as sheep, but of ~veritas~. That is where Catholic dogma spurred from in the first place :thumb:

 

[IMJerusha]

A fetus was treated as property, and eye for eye was met with the injury of the woman.

The value of an infant was determined by it's gender and which seed it was made from.

If the infant was not completely Jewish, it was often sold to slavery for mere shekels.


I know the history and ways of the Levites very well, and how many translators have tried to make it about premature birth rather then the destruction of the fetus.
I know the inaccuracies that have been persuaded by bias, and I know the inconsistency of the teaching among the popes and saints.

I know all these things, where you all obviously do not. I believe what is true, and just like how popes thought that taking over the holy lands was immanent through the infallibility of God's army, so to can many be wrong about something else.

So i'll just leave it at that. You all want to call abortion murder but if you really believed it, you would go at it like we did Hitler's reign- a holocaust that can only be met with force.

But you all don't, because your bias is hubris and not fact. And that goes for all people in of Christian history who guises themselves as speakers against supposed murder.

You know the ways of man. You're looking for an out where there is none. 'Nuff said.

 

[Skybringr]

You know the ways of man. You're looking for an out where there is none. 'Nuff said.

I know that a person who says they are forgiven of murder because they got an abortion has never experienced the depravity of actual murderers who repented in a prison cell.

It's a bad joke.

 

[Rusha]

I know that a person who says they are forgiven of murder because they got an abortion has never experienced the depravity of actual murderers who repented in a prison cell.

It's a bad joke.

IF you don't believe that abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent, you have no valid argument against abortion.

 

[Skybringr]

IF you don't believe that abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent, you have no valid argument against abortion.

Infanticide is laced throughout the Bible.
I know how much many try to ignore those things, and train their eyes only to look at what they want to see.

My argument is extremely simple and open to all who want to take the time to research upon it:
The catechism states that abortion has been condemned as murder all throughout history, and this is plain false. Popes have come out and tolerated it, canonized saints have tread upon this subject just the same.

There's always a change in perception of morality, and right now abortion is a hot topic. The Church is maintaining it's prevalence by not getting down to brass tacks- the catechism is errant as it stands now, and this has always been perceived by a great deal of Catholics all through history. It consistently moves.

I know what I'm talking about, and you do not, and that is the way it is. The Church is very careful in stating that abortion is against the Commandment 'one shall not kill' but never calls it murder. Past popes have said it, but past popes have also said otherwise.
So the argument is pretty much moot.

 

[Rusha]

I know what I'm talking about, and you do not, and that is the way it is. The Church is very careful in stating that abortion is against the Commandment 'one shall not kill' but never calls it murder. Past popes have said it, but past popes have also said otherwise.
So the argument is pretty much moot.

Oh, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I just wanted you to keep repeating that fact that YOU do not see abortion as murder.

That makes you pro-abortion .... thanks for confirming and re-confirming.

 

[Skybringr]

Oh, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I just wanted you to keep repeating that fact that YOU do not see abortion as murder.

That makes you pro-abortion .... thanks for confirming and re-confirming.

On what basis is believing abortion is not explicitly murder means one is pro-abortion?

That's a very childish claim, to say the least of it's absurd ranking in common sense. I believe that rape is not murder, does that make me pro-rape?

 

[Rusha]

On what basis is believing abortion is not explicitly murder means one is pro-abortion?

Without believing the unborn is an innocent life worthy of protection, there is no reason to oppose it because it would be nothing more than a medical procedure.

To you, apparently, it is either a medical procedure and nothing more OR you do not care that the innocent life is being snuffed out.

Which is it?

BTW, this is certainly an odd position for a Catholic ... Chrys must be thrilled to have you on his team.

 

[Skybringr]

Without believing the unborn is an innocent life worthy of protection, there is no reason to oppose it because it would be nothing more than a medical procedure.

An innocent life which is not even born? A life which has experienced nothing, knows nothing, and which loses nothing more then a seed and an egg dispatching into a dead end..

The legal argument fails considerably. And make no mistake, that's what your standing is- a legal fiction:

You define life in a completely different way until the subject of fetuses arise. And that's been a problem throughout the centuries, apparently, as church leaders have failed to agree through history.

The most prevalent of the cases for abortion is that life doesn't begin until the explicit animation of the fetus- that is, when it moves. That is when the supposed spark of the soul comes to be: the moment of the soul's action in reality.

See the legality there? It doesn't mesh with what is otherwise considered human life, in which one is autonomous and perceiving, and experiencing.

You see this with Adam, when God did precisely that. He wasn't born from a womb, he breathed life and upon so, became a living soul.


The reason abortion is sinful is because it is generally disgraceful. It is an unnatural act not intended for us to do. Like homosexuality.
It's a subject of natural law, not murder.

BTW, this is certainly an odd position for a Catholic

So were all the saints who were martyred by Christendom and later canonized.
It's an odd position to think the Church is always inerrant when, first and foremost, admits it is not AND realizes it's mistakes by doing things such as ~canonizing once assumed heretics~.

I mean, one needs to understand these things about the Church. I might strike you as an odd Catholic but it's really just the same ol' thing the world has always seen. A Catholic is a Catholic.

 

[Nang]

Do you agree with this Nang?

Of course I am against women being abused and do not think it has to be tolerated, but I am also against divorce, so before offering counsel and resolution in any such situation involving either, one must become aware of all history and details of the problems.

There is biblical hope, relief, and even resolution possible for persons in abusive relationships, if they find a scriptural Christian Pastor, Elder, or counselor who is properly equipped to counsel and who will faithfully go the the Word of God to provide answers for the spouse(s) in need.

Nang