Feminism

[chrysostom]

Most prolife Christians see abortion as murder even though it is allowed by law. THAT is exactly how I see abortion.

Make your argument as to why you do not believe abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn baby.

IF you do not see abortion as the killing of a innocent, unborn baby , what do you believe is being killed?

did you know the democratic party supports abortion?

 

[Skybringr]

Most prolife Christians see abortion as murder even though it is allowed by law. THAT is exactly how I see abortion.

Make your argument as to why you do not believe abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn baby.

IF you do not see abortion as the killing of a innocent, unborn baby , what do you believe is being killed?

Well most pro-life Christians also double as idiots, so there's no point to be had there honestly.

The Church is perfectly pro-life; don't see them calling all woman who get abortions murderers.

 

[chrysostom]

Well most pro-life Christians also double as idiots, so there's no point to be had there honestly.

The Church is perfectly pro-life; don't see them calling all woman who get abortions murderers.

the Church is not perfectly pro life
it has too many liberal bishops
and
the others do not have the guts to expose them

 

[Skybringr]

the Church is not perfectly pro life
it has too many liberal bishops
and
the others do not have the guts to expose them

:doh:
Or maybe they simply see that the Bible, from Exodus to Leviticus and so on, outright treat fetuses and infants as property and that it makes no sense biblically that one should come to the idea that it's murder.

You all would do so very well to know this; it has nothing to do with liberal bishops, just the honest concession of the holy books. I mean, abortion being murder is a made up right winger claim; it doesn't exist in Abrahamic religion! Even right now, a Muslim will honor kill a pregnant woman and a few thousand years ago, an infant didn't stack up to the price of a camel.

You all pretend that the older days were all roses and honey; it was not, even within the religion of God. If it wasn't murder then, it is not murder now, and that is that.
There is one thing I side with atheists on, and it's the Christians way of putting forward the positives and not the militant. One doesn't want to expose the more gritty side of the Old Testament and the ordinances on abortion is a perfect example.

 

[Quincy]

I think even by evolutionary standards, we have to accept that we've evolved genders for specific reasons and certain genders..... have engendered roles that benefit society. They do those roles best.

However, there are variations and sometimes a woman may want to be a pro golfer or a body builder, instead of a stay at home mom. There is nothing wrong with that, it's her choice and people shouldn't hold her back.

I always thought that was the definition of feminism. Whether a housewife or a professional athlete, it's a woman's choice and neither is more right than the other. Yet, more and more I see a movement that wants to eradicate gender/roles differentiation or even inverse them. It doesn't seem logical to me, it seems rather extreme.

 

[chrysostom]

:doh:
Or maybe they simply see that the Bible, from Exodus to Leviticus and so on, outright treat fetuses and infants as property and that it makes no sense biblically that one should come to the idea that it's murder.

You all would do so very well to know this; it has nothing to do with liberal bishops, just the honest concession of the holy books. I mean, abortion being murder is a made up right winger claim; it doesn't exist in Abrahamic religion! Even right now, a Muslim will honor kill a pregnant woman and a few thousand years ago, an infant didn't stack up to the price of a camel.

You all pretend that the older days were all roses and honey; it was not, even within the religion of God. If it wasn't murder then, it is not murder now, and that is that.

did you vote for obama?

 

[The 5 solas]

Look again at your argument. Notice how it has strayed from a strictly Biblical one (which I applaud by the way, even though we don't agree on what the Bible actualy says) to one that has become quite subjective.

I use Scripture as well as other examples to support my position, there is nothing wrong with that.

I already said that the existence of other institutions where one person exercises authority over another is no justification for such a structure in marriage.

I never said those institutions justified how marriage should function. I merely mentioned them as other examples.

It is not how marriages (at least not typical marriages) function.

It is how they should function though, according to Scripture.

Does Paul compare marriage to employment or to the army? Nope. What does he compare it to? To the relationship of Christ to the church.

Yes, I have done that throughout this thread, referred to Christ as an example, not just in the post you are responding to.

[

Never said it was. If you want an analogy, I would say it resembled more a joint venture.

A marriage is a union before God where two become one flesh.
Joint venture sounds more like a business than marriage to me.

In a normal marriage, the spouses take it in turns to make decisions when they disagree. It's called trust. Trust has to be mutual.

And who is declaring what *normal* is? Where does the Bible ever tell us to take turns making decisions?! lol That is laughable.

It does say , 1 Peter 3:7, "Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered."
Right after saying, 1 Peter 3:1, "Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands," and in verse 5,6 - "For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord."

As I said in my previous post, decisions are usually made together, with consideration to both parties. It is the rare occasion that in a good marriage that a husband has to pull out the veto card. The back and forth thing though, figment of imagination.

Paul says that Christians should be subject to one another out of love for Christ. He then expands on this by saying that wives should be subject to their own husbands.

Yes, the mutual submission, is mentioned once in contrast to a multitude of times wives are told to submit to their husbands.

The Scripture also says:

Genesis 3:16b
"Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”

1 Corinthians 11:3
"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."

Ephesians 5:22-24
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands."

Colossians 3:18
"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord."

Titus 2:5
"to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled."

There are even more verses, but that should suffice.

This is not the same thing as being told what to do. It means that everything you do takes into consideration the other person. The wife should not go around doing what other men tell her to do because she belongs to her husband. It means that there should be order in the church. It doesn't mean that everyone is trying to be a leader or criticising their leaders or making fun of those in their charge or going around doing things that disgrace the name of the church. That's what mutual submission means. Paul is saying that the church is one body, not a load of individuals doing their own thing. Just extend that to a marriage and it easy to understand why Paul said that wives have to be subject to their own husbands.

Not sure about anyone else, but I never said it is just about being told what to do...or about having to obey any and every man. The passages regarding husbands and wives are about husbands and wives. And yes, we are told to submit because it makes the marriage relationship function in a God honouring way.

We don't find options in scripture for atom scientists either.

Just like we don't find Scriptures that say

In a normal marriage, the spouses take it in turns to make decisions when they disagree.

Your big problem here is that you began your argument with an appeal to scripture but it has turned into an argument that is anything but scriptural.

I have referred to Scripture in my posts all along this thread. I should not have neglected reposting them in that response, but did not think it necessary because I did so supra. I will seek to remedy that from now on.

Because there is nothing in scripture that says that a woman's role has to be in the home. You have basically had to invent that.

Oh really?
Titus 2:4,5 says:
"Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God."

And not only so so but in scripture there are a wealth of women who are regarded as righteous who are leaders, who have their own businesses, own their own houses, etc., etc. in both Old and New Testaments.

Never at the neglect of their family though...they are praised because of what they do for their family. Proverbs 31 is the best example of course, the woman of noble character.

 

[Skybringr]

did you vote for obama?

I didn't vote period.

My logic on voting is pretty simple; a vote for someone else doesn't count when the majority are inevitably shooting toward two people, and why would I waste my time voting between two bad runners?

The lack of voting spoke more in that election from what I understand then choosing between two inept people, I wasn't the only one.

 

[Ps82]

When I first heard of the women's liberation movement, I thought it would bring about good things in our society. There would no longer be abuse of women, the double standard where it seemed acceptable for men to exploit vulnerable women (pretty plus stupid) and children for their sexual entertainment. I thought the lives of women would be improved.

Yet, what came was that women lowered their moral standards to those of men and surpassed man's sins with abortion and a manifested vicious hatred for all men and their own off-spring. They reveal that they have no conscience nor any respect for their creator. The movement has brought shame on all women everywhere. I pray that when people see me that don't think I am part of any such thing.

I'm sick of godless liberal women and their movement. I regret that the movement ever came about. Yet, I guess I should not be surprised that men and women are equally evil when they are without Christ in their lives.

 

[chrysostom]

When I first heard of the women's liberation movement, I thought it would bring about good things in our society. There would no longer be abuse of women, the double standard where it seemed acceptable for men to exploit vulnerable women (pretty plus stupid) and children for their sexual entertainment. I thought the lives of women would be improved.

Yet, what came was that women lowered their moral standards to those of men and surpassed man's sins with abortion and a manifested vicious hatred for all men and their own off-spring. They reveal that they have no conscience nor any respect for their creator. The movement has brought shame on all women everywhere. I pray that when people see me that don't think I am part of any such thing.

I'm sick of godless liberal women and their movement. I regret that the movement ever came about. Yet, I guess I should not be surprised that men and women are equally evil when they are without Christ in their lives.

I approve of this message

 

[chrysostom]

I didn't vote period.

My logic on voting is pretty simple; a vote for someone else doesn't count when the majority are inevitably shooting toward two people, and why would I waste my time voting between two bad runners?

The lack of voting spoke more in that election from what I understand then choosing between two inept people, I wasn't the only one.

people like you are the problem
now
please tell us why we should even read your posts

 

[The 5 solas]

LOL
Blame it on the imaginary injustices of women.

Women have had fair education for a long time now, and men still run the field.
The thing about science is that there is no such thing as prejudice. Galileo for example was pinned against the entire Church and virtually all of society. Did it stop his discoveries from becoming prevalent?

No, it didn't.
But now we're going to sit here and say that women who don't have remotely the amount of prejudice aimed at them are being held down?

That's pretty hilarious. The fact of the matter is that men have simply conquered science because they have the type of brain to do it.

The stupidity of society has reached an all time high- even as far back as the 1930's, a man and his wife discovered the dangerous attributes of radiation.
So that goes to show that women have had ample opportunity to give unto science and simply HAVE NOT- because it's a man's field.


With women usurping roles of men, it is more often then not 'experimental'- for the sole sake of having a woman in said role.
But these ~facts~ are ~misogynistic~. Go back: the stupidity of society.

Again, you are sounding more bitter with every post. What is the purpose of this? You are basically saying men are better/smarter than women and mocking women for it...at least that is how it seems to me.

We have already established in this thread that there are differences between men and women which make us better suited for various things. Denying that, is extreme. So, if we agree on this and you sit there on a seat of mockery, I am compelled to bring this verse before you and your attitude.

1 Cor 4:6b,7
" that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

 

[The 5 solas]

I approve of this message

lol

Awesome, then we can carry on!! :carryon:

 

[Skybringr]

people like you are the problem
now
please tell us why we should even read your posts

For what, making sense?

Voting wasn't even intended for America, the US was supposed to be a libertarian state where voting wasn't necessary because government weren't supposed to have that kind of pull in the first place!

I think those like yourself are just bent out of shape because those like ~myself~ see most conservatives as dumb as liberals :chuckle:

Why should I vote between the two when my interest is to promote sovereign citizens? Presidents are liars; what they say and what they do are two different things- the one's who would actually walk the walk are the one's you all call fanatical.
It's ironic, really- it's why this country has become the way it is; nobody really wants a true American change, people just want whatever their carnal souls desire.

And that is why we are likely to fall short where the revolutionaries prevailed. ~True facts~

 

[chrysostom]

For what, making sense?

Voting wasn't even intended for America, the US was supposed to be a libertarian state where voting wasn't necessary because government weren't supposed to have that kind of pull in the first place!

I think those like yourself are just bent out of shape because those like ~myself~ see most conservatives as dumb as liberals :chuckle:

Why should I vote between the two when my interest is to promote sovereign citizens? Presidents are liars; what they say and what they do are two different things- the one's who would actually walk the walk are the one's you all call fanatical.
It's ironic, really.

wacko alert

 

[Skybringr]

Again, you are sounding more bitter with every post. What is the purpose of this? You are basically saying men are better/smarter than women and mocking women for it...at least that is how it seems to me.

I am the counter balance to your faulty standing, where your good intention paves a road to a disturbed society.

I'm sure you're aware of the biblical teaching along that well known sentiment.
~The road to perdition is paved with good intent~

You have utterly ignored any fault of women in favor of upholding women. That's about the same thing as feminism, so how do you differ?
It has done nothing but ruin families and drive the divorce rate up to a damnable number. It's caused lesbianism and abortion, and has put women at the top of the hill in any legal squabble.
And through all of this, it's definitively the man who is chastised because you can't get off on blaming dogs and apes.
How is that Godly?

 

[The 5 solas]

I am the counter balance to your faulty standing, where your good intention paves a road to a disturbed society.

I'm sure you're aware of the biblical teaching along that well known sentiment.
~The road to perdition is paved with good intent~

You have utterly ignored any fault of women in favor of upholding women. That's about the same thing as feminism, so how do you differ?
It has done nothing but ruin families and drive the divorce rate up to a damnable number. It's caused lesbianism and abortion, and has put women at the top of the hill in any legal squabble.
And through all of this, it's definitively the man who is chastised because you can't get off on blaming dogs and apes.
How is that Godly?

In all seriousness....are we reading the same posts?

You have me...a woman with a university degree and her own business saying...
wives should submit to their husbands
they should be busy at home
they should recognize the headship of their husbands
they are intelligent/capable but should put family before career

You are in turn saying to me....

You have utterly ignored any fault of women in favor of upholding women. That's about the same thing as feminism, so how do you differ?

If telling women to submit to their husbands is ignoring fault and upholding them (which submission is since it is Biblical lol ) and then saying that is the same thing as feminism...I think we are having communication breakdown.

It has done nothing but ruin families and drive the divorce rate up to a damnable number. It's caused lesbianism and abortion, and has put women at the top of the hill in any legal squabble.

Sin is the cause of all of this. It is not one sin in particular. You cannot blame everything in this list on just feminism, although I am not a feminist.....the wrongful expression of our sexuality, our femininity, masculinity, the desire to kill our own children, marital discord....all can be attributed to sin, period.

Are the courts becoming biased towards women now, like they used to be towards the men? Absolutely. It is our sinful, fallen world.

And through all of this, it's definitively the man who is chastised because you can't get off on blaming dogs and apes.
How is that Godly?

I never chastised men at all, except for my statement of saying that some give into the feminism or embrace it in their emasculated state in our society.

Actually, when I read my own comments, I am pretty *pro-godly husband* and pro *godly wife*. If someone rejects the teaching of the Scripture and does not believe it, I think that anyone who is fair minded would see I am not favouring one over the other....but rather, favouring the model God laid down for us in Scripture.

 

[IMJerusha]

Well most pro-life Christians also double as idiots, so there's no point to be had there honestly.

What is going on with you? No one who recognizes life for the gift from God that it is, is an idiot.

The Church is perfectly pro-life; don't see them calling all woman who get abortions murderers.

Well, it's good then that the Catholic Church doesn't speak for everyone because bluntly, I am a murderer and there is nothing that abortion can be but murder plain and simple. A lot of people would think that rape justifies murder but it doesn't. I'm here to tell you been there, done that.

 

[IMJerusha]

I am the counter balance to your faulty standing, where your good intention paves a road to a disturbed society.

If God's plan is a road to a disturbed society, then I suggest you find a different faith (well, there really isn't one, is there?). You won't be happy in this one and you can't change God's plan. Looks like you're stuck. lain:

I'm sure you're aware of the biblical teaching along that well known sentiment.
~The road to perdition is paved with good intent~

Proverbs 19:13 "A foolish son is the calamity of his father: and the contentions of a wife are a continual dropping."

You have utterly ignored any fault of women in favor of upholding women.

Well, honestly, it's been very hard to ignore your behavior and to date I can't tell if you're a guy or a gal. You are, however, so sock-ish.

That's about the same thing as feminism, so how do you differ?

Pointing out God's plan for men and women is not even remotely close to feminism.

It has done nothing but ruin families and drive the divorce rate up to a damnable number. It's caused lesbianism and abortion, and has put women at the top of the hill in any legal squabble.

Well, on this we can agree...sort of. Homosexuality, IMO, is a choice just as murder (including abortion) is a choice.

And through all of this, it's definitively the man who is chastised because you can't get off on blaming dogs and apes. How is that Godly?

No one has posted that it is, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Skybringr]

If abortion is murder, then why does scripture treat it otherwise?

You can sit there and affirm your standing that abortion is murder all you want, but it simply is not true and I proved it during the first half of another thread dealing with this issue. You all saw it, but still sit here with this same thing.
~Utterly~ Your belief is a lie, it's not coming from Abrahamic religion at all.

You can call yourself a murderer all you want, all I see is a person made to feel a degree of guilt by a bunch of fools.

Such denial of the truth with the perpetuation of calling people murderers is very well noted as well. How can any of you actually sit there and comment on my 'behavior'. Seriously, what planet are you from?