Feminism

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annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Hi folks.
Wow, a lot of water under the bridge since I last logged in. Hence a multi-quote message. Please read all of it!

I did, and thank you - what a thoughtful post you wrote.
The idea of role differentiating can be just another way of making the woman do as she is told. Human nature is free. It cannot be put in a box. And whilst it is true that most top scientists, mathematicians, etc. are men, there have still been a significant number of women innovators, etc in history. The woman's make up renders her suitable for certain roles and unsuitable for others, just as is true for men also. But that does not mean that women and men must always fulfil those roles and no others. Each individual is free to be the person they want to be. That is the fundamental nature of humanity.
I very much agree with you.

I think she is afraid (on women's behalf) of having someon'e hip on her shoulder. That's not control, it's violence. The Bible says that woman was made to be the help mate of the man, not the slave or servant.
chrys makes a big deal out of my being afraid of being controlled. I think it's because he's a controlling person.

I doubt either of us will change the other's mind. I'm not afraid, that's his word - but I'll say that I'm wary.

So that's what this is all about!
:chuckle: That was funny and ironic at the same time. Definitely a Freudian slip. :)

I don't entirely agree with you there. But I guess my disagreement is what you might call a technical one rather than a theological or ethical one. I simply think that homosexuality and lesbianism are abnormal behaviours. And so it is incumbent on wise people to treat such people with more caution. I think it is entirely justified to be concerned that the behaviour of such people could be unpredictable in stressful situations and I think it is entirely justifiable to disallow such persons from teaching with children or similar jobs or from adopting children.
Thank you for your civil disagreement, I appreciate it a lot. I don't see the same need for caution as you, but I appreciate your thoughts. Heterosexuals have given me more reason to be wary than homosexuals ever have.

In response to various comments about headship within marriage, I have 2 points to make:
1. When God made woman, he said 'it is not good for the man to be alone'.
If, as a result of wanting to shield the inadequacies of a man, or due to gross distortions of scripture, etc., the end result is that man is to carry the ultimate decision making responsibility in a marriage, then he is still alone. The woman has not ultimately been able to help him.
2. If by headship, Paul meant that the man dishes out the orders to the wife and the wife must obey, just as Christ is the head of the man, and this supposed equality of role differentiation is God's way of ordering the world, then how come Christ never tells the man what to do? This argument that the man is the head of the woman in practice is nothing more than a theological justification for the slavery of the woman in the marriage. If I am wrong, then I would invite any husband here to tell me when was the last time Christ intervened in his marriage and said do this or do that? When was the last time the man had to do what he was told? Even the most spiritual of you would not be able to point to more than a couple of occasions in an entire lifetime when Christ led the man to do some specific thing. That is not what headship means. Headship is explicitly defined in the New Testament as sacrificing yourself for the wife. There is no need to look elsewhere for an explanation.
Very well said. Thank you.
 

Nick M

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No. Of course not. But those are negative assertions.

A woman bearing children and nursing is a negative thing? You lost me here for a moment.

And nothing says that a woman has to bear children.

No, but she is missing out at being better at something than a man. :up:

If a person did it once, you'd think they were being stupid or maybe even creative or witty.

Homosexual behavior is not "abnormal" it is immoral. That is the important part.
 

Nimrod

Member
Could you let me into the secret of how you get to be so intelligent?
I'm jealous of your scriptural knowledge and your deep analytical abilities.

Are you asking how it is possible when more people are allowed to vote in a democratic society would end up having more laws on the books?
 

Skybringr

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Are you a Lesbian, Anna?

Do you condone Lesbianism, Anna?

My posts are only meant to bring this thread to its honest level. No one can discuss feminism without discussing the sexual deviancy that lies at its root.

Makes me wonder what kind of Catholic she is, as it seems more Anglicanish then Roman.

She doesn't seem to have the proper attitude of papal catholicism. RCLady seems to be a proper Catholic woman; doesn't go around trumping feminism and all that nonsense.
Others could learn :thumb:

~Speaking of which, ask the Church what she thinks of feminism, and the answer one will ultimately deduce is that it's foolish~
I don't understand how any RC could possibly adhere to it, as part of being Catholic is going to the Church for such inquiries.
 

The 5 solas

New member
In response to various comments about headship within marriage, I have 2 points to make:
1. When God made woman, he said 'it is not good for the man to be alone'.
If, as a result of wanting to shield the inadequacies of a man, or due to gross distortions of scripture, etc., the end result is that man is to carry the ultimate decision making responsibility in a marriage, then he is still alone. The woman has not ultimately been able to help him.
2. If by headship, Paul meant that the man dishes out the orders to the wife and the wife must obey, just as Christ is the head of the man, and this supposed equality of role differentiation is God's way of ordering the world, then how come Christ never tells the man what to do? This argument that the man is the head of the woman in practice is nothing more than a theological justification for the slavery of the woman in the marriage. If I am wrong, then I would invite any husband here to tell me when was the last time Christ intervened in his marriage and said do this or do that? When was the last time the man had to do what he was told? Even the most spiritual of you would not be able to point to more than a couple of occasions in an entire lifetime when Christ led the man to do some specific thing. That is not what headship means. Headship is explicitly defined in the New Testament as sacrificing yourself for the wife. There is no need to look elsewhere for an explanation.

1. That is not an accurate interpretation. It was not good for Adam to be alone so God made him a helpmate, from the man himself. To say that " man is to carry the ultimate decision making responsibility in a marriage, then he is still alone" certainly does not mean that she has not been able to help him.

Having a final authority does not mean that there was no input by others. This is how life functions, in many realms. We do this in business and politics all the time.
A family is not a democracy. The children (nowadays people are so messed up so I know some function this way, but it is not the norm ) do not have an equal say in family matters. In a good Christian marriage, a wife is able to voice her concerns and have the husband prayerfully consider them before making a final decision. When this is done, they can agree together. It is not very often that the husband has to make an "ultimate decision", as it were. If there is disagreement between the spouses, the wife has given her input but the husband feels it is not in the best interest of the family, then his final word stands. He is the head/leader of the relationship.

2. We as Christians are told what to do, it is called the Bible. It is our source of faith and practice. It tells us how to live our lives so they are pleasing to God.

Headship is more than just being a figure head and it is not being a slave driver either. This is where men have indeed abused the Scriptures and their role as head of the home. That does not mean that it is wrong...or that we should have a knee-jerk reaction. The Bible tells us repeatedly that a woman is to submit to her husband in all things. Men and women complement each other. We do stand equal before God in value but we do have different roles. If it is abused that is a result of sin.
Christ submitted to the Father and women are to submit to their husbands, whether people like that concept or not, it is Biblical and the model of what God put down for us to follow. Submission does not mean slavery or abuse.

Historically, we have seen abuse of this model by ungodly and overbearing men who rule as tyrants instead of loving husbands....this is wrong.
Equally wrong is how many men today have been emasculated and have handed over their own responsibilities to the women to be the main bread winners..... and then men are donning aprons and dusting instead of taking on their own roles as provider and protector.

There is freedom in Biblical roles. It is when women want to be men and the men let them because they are not man enough themselves....it is nothing but disorder and disharmony.

The idea of role differentiating can be just another way of making the woman do as she is told. Human nature is free. It cannot be put in a box. And whilst it is true that most top scientists, mathematicians, etc. are men, there have still been a significant number of women innovators, etc in history. The woman's make up renders her suitable for certain roles and unsuitable for others, just as is true for men also. But that does not mean that women and men must always fulfil those roles and no others. Each individual is free to be the person they want to be. That is the fundamental nature of humanity.

Nothing stops a woman from being a rocket scientist or a man a child minder. And nothing says that a woman has to bear children.

A woman is capable of being a rocket scientist , there is no doubt. I personally have a BSc and run a small business that does nearly $1M a year. I think women are more than capable in many areas. The question isn't can she be one, rather, should she be one? Is she married, does she have children? Is this something that she wants to do instead of those things? If she is neglecting her children and husband to pursue her career, regardless of what it is, she is disobeying Scripture. It would really depend on her situation. A single woman must be able to provide for herself, but a married woman should not be pursuing a career at the neglect of her family. I am not saying a woman should never work outside the home, I stated, at the neglect of her family.

A man being a child minder... this is another story. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we see that this should be an option for a man. It is always the woman who is busy at home, not the husband. How a man would even want to do this and give up his role to provide for the family, is beyond me. Even if the wife has a higher earning potential, it is something I loathe seeing a man do. We have roles for a reason, it really is how God made us. I know people reject that, but I do not see how Christians would want to model something other than what the Bible says, for their family life.

I believe if more energy and desire was put into fulfilling the roles laid out for us in Scripture instead of chasing after other roles/money/achievements in a covetous manner, more people would be very satisfied in their homes.
 

Skybringr

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@5 Solas

How many more women are applicable to be rocket scientists as opposed to men being nannies?

One might find that the numbers are closer then one thinks. There is a shortage on both ends.

Look at the history of science- most are in fact male. From Galileo to Newton to Einstein and, as it is right now, Hawking and Neil D Tyson.
Notice the lack of women there.

It's demonstrably proven that science is a man's role. Even on the psychological level, men are more mechanically inclined in general.
But instead of calling this for what it is, people rather call it ~misogynistic~.
 

Rusha

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She doesn't seem to have the proper attitude of papal catholicism. RCLady seems to be a proper Catholic woman; doesn't go around trumping feminism and all that nonsense.
Others could learn

She certainly agrees with ME on abortion and disagrees with you. How are you Catholic and pro-abortion?
 

Skybringr

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She certainly agrees with ME on abortion and disagrees with you. How are you Catholic and pro-abortion?

I never said I was pro-abortion.

I have always held simply that abortion isn't the same as murdering a person.
Not all sins are equal, and it certainly doesn't play that way with abortion vs murder.

But as I've stated, if the law of the Levites doesn't persuade one to know the truth of the matter, then nothing will. You all tread on a false moral fanaticism.
The only annoying thing really is that you all kind of put yourself as more holy then the writers of the Bible. From the disciples of Moses to David and Solomon right down to Paul himself.
On the matters of abortion and feminism, you all have lost your minds.
 

The 5 solas

New member
@5 Solas

How many more women are applicable to be rocket scientists as opposed to men being nannies?

One might find that the numbers are closer then one thinks. There is a shortage on both ends.

Look at the history of science- most are in fact male. From Galileo to Newton to Einstein and, as it is right now, Hawking and Neil D Tyson.
Notice the lack of women there.

It's demonstrably proven that science is a man's role. Even on the psychological level, men are more mechanically inclined in general.
But instead of calling this for what it is, people rather call it ~misogynistic~.

You are failing to see the point. Again you are picking issue with me on something you do NOT have an issue with, in regards to me. You are reading your hatred/chip on your shoulder into my posts. In all likelihood, you will not find a woman more supportive of proper Biblical roles on here than myself...I am pretty hardcore. lol

Women are not there, historically, not because they lacked the mental capacity, if that is what you are implying. Yes, we are made differently. Men and women excel in different areas, in a general manner, based on sexual variants. There are also historic reasons like they were denied education, it was frowned upon etc. Today, the number of women in the scientific and mathematical fields are growing, because the stumbling blocks are not there, in the same manner as they used to be. Men still out number the women, but it is clear that some women are definitely inclined in those ways. This is NOT the point.

The numbers are irrelevant, regardless of what side of the argument you are falling upon. My point was, Christians should follow the model laid down for us in Scripture. In a godly Christian home, the man is the head and the woman is to submit to him, as is pleasing to the Lord. It is how God intended it to be. Sin has ruined this, we run after things we should not - both men and women - but if we seek to live by the Word of God, we will find true fulfillment and satisfaction there in not only our marriages but our roles and lives overall.
 

Rusha

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I never said I was pro-abortion.

I have always held simply that abortion isn't the same as murdering a person.
Not all sins are equal, and it certainly doesn't play that way with abortion vs murder.

IF you don't consider abortion to be the intentional killing of an unborn baby, what would you call it and on what basis could you oppose it?
 

Skybringr

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IF you don't consider abortion to be the intentional killing of an unborn baby, what would you call it and on what basis could you oppose it?

It's unnatural and an affront to the grace Christ gave to us.

It's pretty simple, not only does murder not have to be the condemning factor of abortion, but it's in fact fanatical and completely off the track of sensibility and reason.

Why didn't the Levites treat it as murder? That's what you all should be asking yourself. A law of perfection didn't call it such, so how does an ordinance of grace?
 

IMJerusha

New member
That's just plain wrong, as any simple exegesis of the passage will show. The context of that verse (usually quoted on its own as if it were some isolated dictum of no specific import) is that Peter stopped eating with the gentile believers because he wanted to fess up with the circumcision party. Paul's conclusion is that in Christ there is no Jew or gentile and then he widens the scope to make a more general point, there is no slave nor free and there is no male or female. No, that is not a salvation issue at all. It is a very practical issue of how believers are to treat one another.

Exegesis notwithstanding, sometimes context is as close as the verse just before or after. These verses are clearly about who we are as children of God, and in that is equality of salvation. As pertains to God's headship, it says nothing other than all in Yeshua are God's children.
"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
 
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Selaphiel

Well-known member
It's demonstrably proven that science is a man's role. Even on the psychological level, men are more mechanically inclined in general.
But instead of calling this for what it is, people rather call it ~misogynistic~.

That is simply nonsense. Historically there were more men that made it as scientists because most of scientific history took place pre-feminism, women simply had less of an oppurtunity to pursue such things. You can basically observe it by comparing Nobel prize winnners, after women got more oppurtunities the amount of female Nobel prize winners in scientific categories have gone up from pretty much just a couple of instances in many years to having 3 female Nobel prize winners in scientific categories in 2009.

Studies show that male and female students do just as well, so there is no reason to think that eventually there will be roughly equal parts male and female doctorates and professors in scientific disciplines as well. Some fields move slower than others, but that seems to have more to do with cultural expectations surrounding those fields than to do with ability.

Finally, I see that you are Catholic, Hildegard von Bingen wants to see you in her office. Considering that she was a nun and no doubt owned a ruler, I would prepare my fingers for some serious pain if I was you and had made your comment about women being less fit to do scientific work.
 

Desert Reign

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I did, and thank you - what a thoughtful post you wrote.
I very much agree with you.

Thanks.

A woman bearing children and nursing is a negative thing? You lost me here for a moment.

Negative in the sense of saying what a woman (or man) cannot do.

Homosexual behavior is not "abnormal" it is immoral. That is the important part.
Morality is usually culturally defined and I avoid the term if I can. I usually use it only as the ethical version of good. (e.g. He was a moral person.) But my concept of abnormal is based on the fact that when God made the world he said it was very good. And he made man and most of the animals male and female. So when I say 'abnormal' I envisage that it is contrary to God's goodness in creation. He made it to work that way and homosexuals and lesbians and other soft sexual deviancy are sources of risk in my view.

Are you asking how it is possible when more people are allowed to vote in a democratic society would end up having more laws on the books?

If women had the vote and men didn't, would you make the same argument to show that the number of laws on the statute books was the fault of men?

Having a final authority does not mean that there was no input by others. This is how life functions, in many realms. We do this in business and politics all the time.

Look again at your argument. Notice how it has strayed from a strictly Biblical one (which I applaud by the way, even though we don't agree on what the Bible actually says) to one that has become quite subjective.

I already said that the existence of other institutions where one person exercises authority over another is no justification for such a structure in marriage. It is how employment functions; it is how the army functions. It is not how marriages (at least not typical marriages) function. Your argument is not Biblical at all. Does Paul compare marriage to employment or to the army? Nope. What does he compare it to? To the relationship of Christ to the church.


A family is not a democracy.
Never said it was. If you want an analogy, I would say it resembled more a joint venture.

If there is disagreement between the spouses, the wife has given her input but the husband feels it is not in the best interest of the family, then his final word stands. He is the head/leader of the relationship.
In a normal marriage, the spouses take it in turns to make decisions when they disagree. It's called trust. Trust has to be mutual.

The Bible tells us repeatedly that a woman is to submit to her husband in all things.
Paul says that Christians should be subject to one another out of love for Christ. He then expands on this by saying that wives should be subject to their own husbands. This is not the same thing as being told what to do. It means that everything you do takes into consideration the other person. The wife should not go around doing what other men tell her to do because she belongs to her husband. It means that there should be order in the church. It doesn't mean that everyone is trying to be a leader or criticising their leaders or making fun of those in their charge or going around doing things that disgrace the name of the church. That's what mutual submission means. Paul is saying that the church is one body, not a load of individuals doing their own thing. Just extend that to a marriage and it easy to understand why Paul said that wives have to be subject to their own husbands.

Men and women complement each other. We do stand equal before God in value but we do have different roles.
I already made my point about roles and nothing you say here seems to refute that.

A man being a child minder... this is another story. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we see that this should be an option for a man.
We don't find options in scripture for atom scientists either.

It is always the woman who is busy at home, not the husband. How a man would even want to do this and give up his role to provide for the family, is beyond me.
[/QUOTE]

Your big problem here is that you began your argument with an appeal to scripture but it has turned into an argument that is anything but scriptural. Because there is nothing in scripture that says that a woman's role has to be in the home. You have basically had to invent that. And not only so so but in scripture there are a wealth of women who are regarded as righteous who are leaders, who have their own businesses, own their own houses, etc., etc. in both Old and New Testaments.
 
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Rusha

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IF you don't consider abortion to be the intentional killing of an unborn baby, what would you call it and on what basis could you oppose it?

It's unnatural and an affront to the grace Christ gave to us.

It's pretty simple, not only does murder not have to be the condemning factor of abortion, but it's in fact fanatical and completely off the track of sensibility and reason.

Why didn't the Levites treat it as murder? That's what you all should be asking yourself.
A law of perfection didn't call it such, so how does an ordinance of grace?

Most prolife Christians see abortion as murder even though it is allowed by law. THAT is exactly how I see abortion.

Make your argument as to why you do not believe abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn baby.

IF you do not see abortion as the killing of a innocent, unborn baby , what do you believe is being killed?
 

Skybringr

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That is simply nonsense. Historically there were more men that made it as scientists because most of scientific history took place pre-feminism, women simply had less of an oppurtunity to pursue such things. You can basically observe it by comparing Nobel prize winnners, after women got more oppurtunities the amount of female Nobel prize winners in scientific categories have gone up from pretty much just a couple of instances in many years to having 3 female Nobel prize winners in scientific categories in 2009.

Studies show that male and female student do just as well, so there is no reason to think that eventually there will be roughly equal parts male and female doctorates and professors in scientific disciplines as well. Some fields move slower than others, but that seems to have more to do with cultural expectations surrounding those fields than to do with ability.

Finally, I see that you are Catholic, Hildegaard von Bingen wants to see you in her office. Considering that she was a nun and no doubt owned a ruler, I would prepare my fingers for some serious pain if I was you and had made your comment about women being less fit to do scientific work.

LOL
Blame it on the imaginary injustices of women.

Women have had fair education for a long time now, and men still run the field.
The thing about science is that there is no such thing as prejudice. Galileo for example was pinned against the entire Church and virtually all of society. Did it stop his discoveries from becoming prevalent?

No, it didn't.
But now we're going to sit here and say that women who don't have remotely the amount of prejudice aimed at them are being held down?

That's pretty hilarious. The fact of the matter is that men have simply conquered science because they have the type of brain to do it.

The stupidity of society has reached an all time high- even as far back as the 1930's, a man and his wife discovered the dangerous attributes of radiation.
So that goes to show that women have had ample opportunity to give unto science and simply HAVE NOT- because it's a man's field.


With women usurping roles of men, it is more often then not 'experimental'- for the sole sake of having a woman in said role.
But these ~facts~ are ~misogynistic~. Go back: the stupidity of society.
 
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